Site C

[hobbyguy]

You can not take the parochial view of just BC, we are part of the Canadian grid, and part of the North American grid. Alberta is moving to close its coal plants. Many US coal plants (despite Trump's shtick) will be closing in the next 2-3 years.

And NO - solar and wind are a scam on subsidies.

Here is the unanswered challenge:

Please post a link to a windy - solar grid jurisdiction that has renewable, reliable, abundant, and affordable electricity without subsidies.

You can't, because it can't be done! Germany, as an example has average electricity costs of $.35/kWh - and they are still burning tons of fossil fuel.

The stupidity of Ontario is that they are BUYING peak power from Quebec, and being forced to SELL wind power that is produced off peak (creating an off peak surplus) that they have to dump for peanuts while the wind producers get guaranteed rates and takes at high prices.

We don't want to go down that stupid road. Ontario has the highest rates in Canada, and has had to abandon their subsidies - whereupon all the "green jobs" go away. They got scammed by subsidy miners!

[Smurf]

They can't take your challenge because you are right it is impossible it does not exist. I also note that butcher99 has not taken my challenge and I will bet it is because he really doesn't have any factual information and absolutely no plan for the future. Sounds like the NDP. I again challenge him or anyone else to:

"Please" explain in detail :

"What is the better alternative to site C for our future long term electrical needs?

We are waiting patiently, but certainly not holding our breath

[maryjane48]

Marc Eliesen, who was at the helm of BC Hydro from 1992 to 1994, outlined why he believes the only financially responsible course of action is to cancel the $8.8 billion project and remediate the Peace River site in order to minimize Site C’s negative impact on BC Hydro customers and taxpayers.


Both the former government and BC Hydro’s Board abdicated their fiduciary responsibility to the rate payers and tax payers of this province,” Eliesen said in his 22-page submission to the BCUC, which is conducting a fast-tracked review of Site C’s finances and construction schedule.

There never was a business case for the start-up of construction of Site C, and there is not a business case to support its continuation or postponement.”

To justify the Site C dam, Eliesen said BC Hydro and the former B.C. government engaged in questionable activities to drive demand, “inventing industries” like LNG, “inventing customers” in Alberta and “inventing international demand” from the United States.


is the author’s considered opinion, based on many years of experience at a number of Canadian utilities — including BC Hydro — that the cost of Site C has a high probability of increasing from $9 billion to $12 billion — by more than 30 percent.”


Site C’s price tag has already soared from $6.6 billion in 2010 to $7.9 billion in 2011 to $8.5 billion in 2014 and $8.8 billion in 2016 — an increase of 33 percent.

Echoing statements made by the Commercial Energy Consumers Association of B.C. — which says it has compelling evidence that BC Hydro has over forecasted electricity demand for the past 50 years — Eliesen also said there is a “systemic bias” in BC Hydro’s load forecasts that exaggerates demand and does not take into account drops in demand related to higher hydro rates.

If additional electricity is required, “alternatives are available that are much more responsive to market conditions and much more cost effective than Site C,” he stated.


https://www.desmog.ca/2017/08/16/stop-l ... site-c-dam

sorry but if you want challanges i suggest joining a bridge club . the facts are clearly laid out and if you look on social media the support for site c is dead in the water . 5 people screaming like banshees 9n a forum with the same 100 people posting is nothing .

[maryjane48]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+n ... story.html


this article implies the bclibs signd on petrowest knowing full we they couldnt pay . each day site c is becoming more of a make work project for bclib donors and less something bc actualy needs . a giant fast ferry that the bclibs own lock stock and barrel

[Smurf]

butcher99 wrote:

Really, how much electricity does an electric car use? As solar and wind continues to get cheaper and cheaper new and better storage solutions will come forward. You seem to think that alternate technologies will not get better cheaper and more efficient. You can already see how that is happening with solar now being one of the cheapest forms of electricity out there. It will only get cheaper. Yet this power dam will continue to cost $500 million a year. 7% added to every power bill in the province for 70 years. Is that a good deal?

Please answer hobbyguy's challenge.

Please give us some facts and figures that solar is one of the cheapest forms of electricity without subsidies. In other words
totally on it's own merits. Are you talking 24/7/365 or just when the sun shines. Are you talking synchronous. How long will it last before it requires replacement and are those facts calculated into your statement about it "being one of the cheapest forms of electricity out there".
Please give us your facts and figures that prove your opinion.

[butcher99]

They can't take your challenge because you are right it is impossible it does not exist. I also note that butcher99 has not taken my challenge and I will bet it is because he really doesn't have any factual information and absolutely no plan for the future. Sounds like the NDP. I again challenge him or anyone else to:

"Please" explain in detail :

"What is the better alternative to site C for our future long term electrical needs?

We are waiting patiently, but certainly not holding our breath

Our electrical needs are falling not rising. Green energies are taking over. Green energies are cheaper and actually receive less subsidy than other forms of energy.
What is the subsidy we the tax payers will pay for site c? a 7% surcharge on your bill for 70 years. 500 million a year. Hows that for a subsidy. The power from site C will cost 3 times the going rate and will have to be sold off at a massive loss the same as Ontario has to and will not break even for 70 years. BC Hydro figures, not mine.
You bring up Ontario but in the next breath you want to put BC in the same camp. Too much electricity that we have to sell at a loss and that we the citizens have to pay to sell.
A better alternative is building itself in new technology. New storage capacities for electricity and better efficiency and better green generators. BC Hydro has failed to provide a case where this dam is even needed. It was being built for the LNG plants to start with. Plants that said they did not need the power because they would generate their own.
As an example of new technology Tesla just drove one of their cars over 1000km on a single charge. Yes, they drove to conserve energy but they did make 1000km on one charge. You cannot even do that in your car. No matter how carefully you drive.

So to go back to your question about subsidies again. In the United States, the federal government has paid US$74 billion for energy subsidies to support R&D for nuclear power ($50 billion) and fossil fuels ($24 billion) from 1973 to 2003. During this same timeframe, renewable energy technologies and energy efficiency received a total of US $26 billion. All of a sudden renewable subsidies don't look that out of line.

[butcher99]

Please answer hobbyguy's challenge.

Please give us some facts and figures that solar is one of the cheapest forms of electricity without subsidies. In other words
totally on it's own merits. Are you talking 24/7/365 or just when the sun shines. Are you talking synchronous. How long will it last before it requires replacement and are those facts calculated into your statement about it "being one of the cheapest forms of electricity out there".
Please give us your facts and figures that prove your opinion.

You could have done this search yourself you know. This was one of the easiest searches I ever had to do. I could have given you many many more articles.
Some of these articles are over a year old. As of this year Solar and wind are cheaper when you factor in costs of construction.
Before the links here is a quote from one of the stories.
"Just ten years ago, generating electricity through solar cost about $600 per MWh, and it cost only $100 to generate the same amount of power through coal and natural gas. But the price of renewable sources of power plunged quickly – today it only costs around $100 the generate the same amount of electricity through solar and $50 through wind."
And these prices are falling.
BTW, the actual estimated cost for power from Site C is the same as solar now costs and twice the cost of wind or about 100per mwh. And that cost will not be falling. It will go up if the cost of the dam continues to increase as it has been doing.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... ow-what-do
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/25/co ... tural-gas/
http://canwea.ca/wind-facts/affordable-power/
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 77096.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 09251.html

[rustled]

Our electrical needs are falling not rising.
...
As an example of new technology Tesla just drove one of their cars over 1000km on a single charge. Yes, they drove to conserve energy but they did make 1000km on one charge. You cannot even do that in your car. No matter how carefully you drive.
...

Interesting.

It took the Club 29 hours to travel its 1078 km, and the route was planned throughout the suburban roads of Salerno in southern Italy. While the EV is indeed a normal production car that featured standard low rolling resistance tires, the drivers gamed the system as much as they could to ensure that the vehicle stayed running for as long as possible.

The average speed of their trip was just 40 km per hour, or 24.85 mph — so if you’re looking to get anywhere fast, don’t expect your Tesla to last quite so long on a single charge. Moreover, the Club noted that the AC was kept off the entire time, and drivers sought to maintain a “smooth driving approach.”

ETA: link https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-1000-km/

In the real world, it's unlikely anyone would see tandem driving 29 hours to cover 1,000km with no air conditioning as proof of terrific advancements. Frankly, if it's all about saving the planet from fossil fuels you'd get better mileage from a horse and buggy. There's a long, long way to go before this technology's ready to replace petroleum-fueled automobiles.

When it does transpire, we will be charging our EVs with electricity. That's a lot of energy we'll be sucking from wire instead of a fuel pump, so whether or not electrical needs are currently falling, one would expect demand to increase in the future. Wind and solar are on the wane, and the world's not yet ready to embrace nuclear. Seems to me Site C's the most practical investment, but I'm sure there will be those who disagree.

[maryjane48]

hyundi is comming out with 500km range ev in 2021 . tesla is stick in the side of the ice makers to get them on board . musk shamed the ice manufactures to get with the times . and it worked .

500 km range is more than enough for the avg canadian i dont do that in my truck in a week .

[rustled]

Please answer hobbyguy's challenge.

Please give us some facts and figures that solar is one of the cheapest forms of electricity without subsidies. In other words
totally on it's own merits. Are you talking 24/7/365 or just when the sun shines. Are you talking synchronous. How long will it last before it requires replacement and are those facts calculated into your statement about it "being one of the cheapest forms of electricity out there".
Please give us your facts and figures that prove your opinion.

You could have done this search yourself you know. This was one of the easiest searches I ever had to do. I could have given you many many more articles.
Some of these articles are over a year old. As of this year Solar and wind are cheaper when you factor in costs of construction.
Before the links here is a quote from one of the stories.
"Just ten years ago, generating electricity through solar cost about $600 per MWh, and it cost only $100 to generate the same amount of power through coal and natural gas. But the price of renewable sources of power plunged quickly – today it only costs around $100 the generate the same amount of electricity through solar and $50 through wind."
And these prices are falling.
BTW, the actual estimated cost for power from Site C is the same as solar now costs and twice the cost of wind or about 100per mwh. And that cost will not be falling. It will go up if the cost of the dam continues to increase as it has been doing.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... ow-what-do
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/25/co ... tural-gas/
http://canwea.ca/wind-facts/affordable-power/
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 77096.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 09251.html

Some pretty interesting and informative comments below each of the opinion/sales & promo pieces linked to above.

[maryjane48]

you ca people repeating the same lies defending carbon and dams as interesting .? i would classify it as desperate myself . you plan on donating a billion towards site c so rest of us do not have to ?

[rustled]

hyundi is comming out with 500km range ev in 2021 . tesla is stick in the side of the ice makers to get them on board . musk shamed the ice manufactures to get with the times . and it worked .

500 km range is more than enough for the avg canadian i dont do that in my truck in a week .

Interesting. (Info I saw said "after 2021", but whatever.) Hyundai's come a long way since the Pony.

If you're willing to tell us, mj, do you expect your truck to be due for replacement in 2021, and if so do you think it likely you'd replace it with a brand-new first generation car? (I did that once, but since then I've stuck to getting long years of use out of good used vehicles, and prefer not to get first-year models as they seem more prone to issues.)

[lasnomadas]

@butcher99:
I hear crickets from the 'show me a link' camp.

[maryjane48]

i plan on not using a car . i drive my truck only when i have to . infact i plan on getting a mountain bike made from hemp fibre . like carbon fibre but better . theres car being made from hemp fobre now like henry ford wanted to but the greed of the oil barons nixed that . *removed*

[butcher99]

Some pretty interesting and informative comments below each of the opinion/sales & promo pieces linked to above.

So you skipped the articles that might have enlightened you to read posts by people who agree with you?