Ideas for taxing and spending in BC? non-partisan please!

[Urbane]

I don't dispute any of those things being true Urbane, I also know I had to leave for several years to recover from what I consider a disaster during the 80's (at least in my sector). I should also point out that economies don't turn around on a dime, either for the worse or for the better. Much of what we see happening in any decade, or at least in the 5 year cycle, has at its roots things that were set up in the previous cycle. But I continue to fail to see what any of this discussion has to do with the topic and it continually being derailed into areas that have been thrashed to death in other threads, .....over, and over, and over.

And once more FWIW, we are NOT in election mode. Once we are, you (and a few others here on both sides) will probably go over it all again too. And I promise I for one will have no interest in participating in it ever again. It's just a waste of time and finger leather.

Nab

Thank you. We are at least somewhat in agreement because I don't think this is on topic either. Last night I said I didn't think that what happened in the 1990's in mining was relevant to what this thread was about and you overruled me so I was just going with it and trying to answer Logi's question. Anyway, time to move on to the present and the future. Do you agree that we should be looking at freezes and cuts rather than tax increases?

[NAB]

I don't dispute any of those things being true Urbane, I also know I had to leave for several years to recover from what I consider a disaster during the 80's (at least in my sector). I should also point out that economies don't turn around on a dime, either for the worse or for the better. Much of what we see happening in any decade, or at least in the 5 year cycle, has at its roots things that were set up in the previous cycle. But I continue to fail to see what any of this discussion has to do with the topic and it continually being derailed into areas that have been thrashed to death in other threads, .....over, and over, and over.

And once more FWIW, we are NOT in election mode. Once we are, you (and a few others here on both sides) will probably go over it all again too. And I promise I for one will have no interest in participating in it ever again. It's just a waste of time and finger leather.

Nab

Thank you. We are at least somewhat in agreement because I don't think this is on topic either. Last night I said I didn't think that what happened in the 1990's in mining was relevant to what this thread was about and you overruled me so I was just going with it and trying to answer Logi's question. Anyway, time to move on to the present and the future. Do you agree that we should be looking at freezes and cuts rather than tax increases?

Most definitely. We are being taxed to death, and I would go a step further and say we need to be looking at TAX DECREASES! But right now I have this monster fresh salmon steak that I have to wrap my head around.

Later...

Nab

[Logitack]

The Anti-HST Vote Result Spin Campaign Continues
August 31st, 2011 · 10 Comments

The spin campaign against the anti-HST vote result in the media fulfills my prediction that even after the tax was rejected, the war would go on. Sometimes, though, I wish I was wrong … but the corporate message has become so predictable … anyone can clearly see their agenda.

The Fraser Institute, financed by and persistent voice of BIG corporations and the rich and powerful and right wing thinkers, was one of the first out of the gate.

In an almost hilarious piece of work in The Vancouver Sun …although I’m sure they didn’t intend it that way ….. the Institute says the loss of the HST will give BC “one of the highest overall tax rates on investment among the provinces..only PEI will have a higher rate” .

So sounds to me like they’re calling Finance Minster Keven Falcon a liar, when he says BC is still one of the best, most competitive places to invest.

Which is it? Well, judging by Standard and Poors reaction to the vote result …keeping BC’s Triple “A” tax rating, I’ll buy Falcon’s version of reality.

What was the Fraser Institute pitch all about? They made it quite clear in the rest of the article: BC corporations should have their corporate income tax rate “completely” eliminated ..down to ZERO! Or at least give business a complete sales tax exemption on machinery, equipment and technology. Or a flat tax on all sources of income, wages, capital gains, business income, interest income, savings and investment returns.

In my view, a pathetic formula for the rich to get richer and the middle class and poor to pay for almost everything .

Hilarious! Except the Sun gave it prominent placement. And we also know the Fraser Institute does have the ear of the Liberal government.

So it’s scary. Not that the government would dare to adopt any of those ludicrous recommendations BEFORE an election … but who knows what could happen after … not likely within days anymore …but months later?

And what I see as the anti-HST spin hasn’t stopped there.

A full five-column headline in Tuesday’s Province declared “HST defeat creates uncertainty”. The sub headline said renovators could suffer if homeowners wait for the PST to return.

Certainly the headline sounded like bad news as a result of the rejection of the hated tax. BUT, reading the article, it seemed to me the facts did not support that: home builders and renovators could suffer …not from the loss of the tax, which many were HAPPY to see go down, but from the DELAY in getting rid of it.

That’s a very big difference. The headline should have read “HST DELAY creates uncertainty” not the HST DEFEAT, to more accurately reflect the contents.

The Sun also had what I felt was a deceptive and misleading headline on a post HST story… “Alberta buyers big winners as BC axes HST”.

Sounds bad for BC … BUT the story reported the reason Albertans will benefit is that removal of the HST will make it cheaper for them to buy BC recreational homes. In fact, it added the HST had been a “disaster” for BC’s recreational property market. Without the tax, BC sellers will find it much easier to sell their properties … and we all know increasing sales means better prices. Sounds pretty good for British Columbians, not just Albertans.

Not a bad news story at all for British Columbians ..but the headline had a much different spin.

As I predicted, the HST fight is NOT “behind us”: the corporate community and the very rich who benefited BIG TIME from the unfair tax will not go quietly into the dark. They will use all their access routes to government ministers … direct and indirect … (including the media) to find ways AROUND the public’s decision.

That, of course, is their right.

But those who want business and the wealthy to pay their fair share must remain vigilant …to stop the end run now being attempted.
http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/the-anti- ... /#comments
Harv Oberfeld

you gotta love big business wanting their share of the government welfare pie. That underlined part in harv's article (the underline was my doing) is scary to contemplate considering if that happens, the middle class will be shouldered with an even higher tax bill to pay for all the government programs. Fair? you betcha, for the large corporations, not so much for the rest of us!

[NAB]

How about posting that to the HST thread instead of this one Logi. Are you unable to take a hint, or are you just trying to irritate me (and others) by posting it here and attempting to derail the topic again?

Nab

[Logitack]

the blog post deals with taxing and spending! shrugs....

[NAB]

ya, I guerss you are right, it sorta does in a round about way, at least as to who gets taxed more and who less and benefits as it relates specifically to HST. I guess what is bugging/irritating me is we cannot seem to get to the non-partisan part nor much in the way of specific detail, .....and quit with the political and personal jabs, electioneering, and old hat political history. Somehow we have to let go of the idea that the HST, or even consumption taxes period, are the end all be all as as to how to fairly distribute taxation in the future. There seems at least to be agreement that our entire taxation system has to be reviewed - IMO we not only are taxed to death, but there are just too many taxes and other fees and pools of money in total that the government uses to extract money from the economy, and pay ever increasing piles of bureaucracy to manage and administer it all, even create more pockets of bureaucracy to come up with even more ideas how to keep that circle growing. All is interrelated because a tax in one area can flow through the whole system in a huge inflationary circle that never ends, nibbles away and and reduces the value of each dollar, while incomes keeping pace always seems to be a major problem. We need to get to simplicity and transparency as to where the government takes money from, where it goes, and what the spinoff ramifications are, and get the hell out of managing everyone's business for them. There's far too much government involvement in our lives, along with far too many private citizens and businesses who keep promoting ever more involvement to their own benefit, and cannot seem to keep their noses out of their neighbour's business or affairs.

Until something significant changes, we will always have what BC is particularly noted for right across the country - 2 party highly political polarization. One biased toward policy and related economics that favour big business, investors, and "promise of some future never never land, i.e. NEVER seems to arrive, ....and the other biased toward policy and related economics that favour the working class and their families, .....and the present. Then we have that third factor we are noted for .....over the top environmental activism and nuttiness that both sides tend to cater to, just in different ways. One being more practical, and the other trying to turn it into business, employment, ....and even more taxes and fees leading to ever more government attempts to subsidize those favoured, and tax and redistribute wealth in their direction as a result (yup, that's what the carbon tax or similar nschemes does). You decide who is who in that regard LOL.

We also have to realize that there are three levels of government doing all this to us, ...but at the end of the day still only one taxpayer who foots all the bills in one way or another - directly or indirectly.

Nab

[Rwede]

LOL Logi. Surely you jest. I don't know where you were living in the 1990's but I was right here in this house and I remember the mining industry going through tough times in this province. And that's what happens when you get an anti-business mentality in Victoria. Continue your fantasy if you like but at the end of the 1990's the NDP was relegated to two seats and even you can't deny that.

In the 1990s, I was looking at buying a couple of city lots in Sparwood and Elkford. Fully serviced, 1/4 acre, good family neighbourhoods - $6,000. Those lots today are now $70,000 - $90,000. With a devastated mining industry in the 1990s, people (including the mines) couldn't give land away in those areas. Now, it's booming, and the mines are hiring people in bunches to wealth-creating jobs. What a difference a "mining friendly" government makes.

As for my investment - coulda, shoulda woulda...

[twobits]

LOL Logi. Surely you jest. I don't know where you were living in the 1990's but I was right here in this house and I remember the mining industry going through tough times in this province. And that's what happens when you get an anti-business mentality in Victoria. Continue your fantasy if you like but at the end of the 1990's the NDP was relegated to two seats and even you can't deny that.

In the 1990s, I was looking at buying a couple of city lots in Sparwood and Elkford. Fully serviced, 1/4 acre, good family neighbourhoods - $6,000. Those lots today are now $70,000 - $90,000. With a devastated mining industry in the 1990s, people (including the mines) couldn't give land away in those areas. Now, it's booming, and the mines are hiring people in bunches to wealth-creating jobs. What a difference a "mining friendly" government makes.

As for my investment - coulda, shoulda woulda...

I remember those days too. In Elkford, entire apartment blocks completely shuttered, newer 4 bedroom houses for 25K and no one was buying them.

[NAB]

Anyone want to take another run at this based on recent developments and current reality? It could become even worse than some folks perception of the 90's, particularly since we won't be able to blame the NDP for it. I suppose if it is fair to blame them for the recessionary influences of the 90's in some sectors, it would only be fair to blame the current BC Liberals for those of recent years?

...or, we can try to figure out what should be done about it to keep the impact as non destructive to the economy as possible by not only significantly reducing spending AND PLANNED SPENDING GROWTH across the board say by a mandatory 10% or more (and particulary in non-essential bird in the bush areas), ....but REDUCING taxes and fees on /taxpayers/consumers from current levels at the same time.

Edit to add: Perhaps on the spending front we should also look at spending PRIORITIES, with a view to moving currently planned expenditures in some areas into areas of higher priority? After all, most of us as individuals and/or businesses have had to make difficult decisions like that.

Nab

[The Green Barbarian]

Edit to add: Perhaps on the spending front we should also look at spending PRIORITIES, with a view to moving currently planned expenditures in some areas into areas of higher priority? After all, most of us as individuals and/or businesses have had to make difficult decisions like that.

Nab

NAB - my biggest issue with the NDP, other than the high taxes they ultimately inflict upon us, is that they feel the need to interfere on every level with a multitude of different businesses, like mining and forestry, which directly lead to those industries shutting down completely. I agree that we can't blame the entire disaster that was BC in the 1990's on the NDP, given the world economic situation and the low price for natural resources that also played a role, but still - there was a reason we were voted one of the worst mining jurisidictions in the world, and a reason why companies are still hesitant to commit to BC, especially when they look at the polls. So for me - it's not about spending or cutting spending, it is about just staying the hell out of the way of business decisions, and not growing bureaucracies within government just to give your cronies jobs.

Make it as easy as possible for our entrepreneurs to exploit our vast wealth of resources without causing long-term environmental damage and ensuring that the First Nations are included in consultations and reward when the project moves forward. If the NDP can avoid their natural instinct to f-up everything they touch, then I wouldn't be as worried about them being in power. As it stands, I just don't trust them, and neither should anyone else. You can cry and whine about the Liberals all you want, but at least I trust them to STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY of our brightest and best people who make this province what it is, and what it truly could be if our leaders weren't such idiots.

[NAB]

I get all that GB. But what about taxing and spending issues going forward (that THIS government controls, at least until something changes on that front)?

Nab

[The Green Barbarian]

I get all that GB. But what about taxing and spending issues going forward (that THIS government controls, at least until something changes on that front)?

Nab

Nab - you are smart enough to understand that providing an environment that is conducive to entreprenuers, wealth-generation and capital spending generates jobs, which in turn generate tax revenue. You can't "legislate" jobs into being, despite what Jack Layton and the federal NDP were trying peddle as policy last election, but you can stay out of the way and while keeping a regulatory eye on things, let business be the ones doing the hiring, be it the hated "big business" that certain individuals on this site seem to regard with such disdain, for reasons unknown even to them I am sure, or small businesses with 10 - 50 employees.

Once you have the money coming in, you have the money to spend on programs. Where should it be spent? Judging by the rapid aging of our population, there is one main area it is going to have to go, at least until someone has the courage to make some reforms, and that is health-care. We continue to develop technology that is keeping people alive a lot longer than in the past, unfortunately we are keeping them alive just so that they can be burdens on the system, rather than members paying in to the system. Such is life.

So to put the shoe on the other foot - the whole "create a decent environment for business" concept isn't that hard to comprehend, and it is a tried and true model (look at our neighbours to the east). For the life of me, why the NDP in this province can't figure that out, and does the exact opposite every time they get into power, is just baffling.

[flamingfingers]

I believe the title of the thread is "Ideas for taxing and spending in BC? - non-partisan." NOT "Why I need to *bleep* and moan about ancient history."

And because the Liberals are the ruling party of the day, it is rather appropriate to criticize them NOW as opposed to a party that got thrown out of power over 10 years ago.

Do you perchance have a reading comprehension problem?

Maybe we could get back on topic as it relates to PRESENT DAY politics.

[flamingfingers]

The NDP are not that party.

I knew you could not post a single post without mentioning the NDP!

Anyway, who is to say the NDP will get back into power in 2013 (or before)?? What if your adored Liberals get back in? Do you not have a single valuable "Idea for taxing and spending in BC? non-partisan please!" ???

[The Green Barbarian]

The NDP are not that party.

I knew you could not post a single post without mentioned the NDP!

Anyway, who is to say the NDP will get back into power in 2013 (or before)?? What if your adored Liberals get back in? Do you not have a single valuable "Idea for taxing and spending in BC? non-partisan please!" ???

do you have any "valuable" ideas - all you've done is played your usual parrot routine - a role you play well, but obviously have no other talents. Oh yeah - this is for your complex - NDP!!

Spend money collected on health care - I believe I said that in a prior post. The money should come from taxes collected from mining - with resource industries going great guns right now money should be pouring in. One thing I will say for the Liberals in the negative, they cut too much. I know of several mining operations and exploration companies in BC that are sitting around waiting on permits that aren't being done due to chronic understaffing in the government. So there is a con to cutting too much bureaucracy, in that you want to support your entrepreneurs as much as you want to stay out of their way.

NDP!! (One more for you Flaming!)