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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Kareem a-Weet » Jan 29th, 2019, 8:20 pm

By getting rid of the non-essential coverages and non-insurance aspects which are presumably money-losing propositions for ICBC, they should lose less than they are. I am suggesting ways for ICBC to lose less money, not to benefit the driving public. I thought that was what this thread was all about.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby my5cents » Jan 29th, 2019, 10:52 pm

Kareem a-Weet wrote:By getting rid of the non-essential coverages and non-insurance aspects which are presumably money-losing propositions for ICBC, they should lose less than they are. I am suggesting ways for ICBC to lose less money, not to benefit the driving public. I thought that was what this thread was all about.

That's not where the losses are coming from.

The profit is in the optional insurance. What you are suggesting is to eliminate the profitable portion of ICBC book of business, plus the non-insurance duties that reduce taxes.

The government paying contractors to issue DLs, collect debts ? Where's that money going to come from ?

The losses are coming from the the first $200,000 liability coverage, so in your scenario nothing is changing that. The govt. has implemented a threshold no fault system that will turn around the loss picture.

Even private auto insurance provinces have implemented no fault auto insurance to help keeping the premiums down.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Kareem a-Weet » Jan 29th, 2019, 11:33 pm

You state that the non-legislated coverages are the profitable ones. I don't know if you have seen a statistical breakdown of that information - I haven't. Is that why the private insurers want to get into the business? Or should the mandate of ICBC be to ensure that everyone who drives in BC has insurance?
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Hassel99 » Jan 30th, 2019, 8:23 am

Kareem a-Weet wrote:You state that the non-legislated coverages are the profitable ones. I don't know if you have seen a statistical breakdown of that information - I haven't. Is that why the private insurers want to get into the business? Or should the mandate of ICBC be to ensure that everyone who drives in BC has insurance?


Private insurance already exists in bc for non legislative coverages....you only have to buy the fist $200k in 3rd party liability with ICBC. You can by physical damage and higher limits of liability from a private insurer if you wish right now.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Catsumi » Jan 30th, 2019, 10:10 am

Kareem a-Weet wrote:Use a bit of lateral thinking, Twobits. A card at the gas pump with your and your car's information could add a premium to the cost of gas. For straight renewals, anyway. More gas you use, the costlier the premium.



This sounds fair, plausible, simple and cost effective for collection. Sure beats the renewal reward paid now. Just insert your DL and CC when gassing up, calculations made, choose to pay now, monthly or annual.

Gas use equals mileage driven for passenger cars. A formula wouldprobably have to be constructed for taxis, delivery (C Post) vehicles?

Maybe we could thrash out this idea, pros, cons and unforeseens?
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......ICBC NEEDS COMPETITION.....

Postby josephtalbot1 » Jan 30th, 2019, 10:13 am

It works quite well in other provinces....

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/247978 ... ompetition
Last edited by ferri on Jan 30th, 2019, 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added link to article
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby my5cents » Jan 30th, 2019, 10:30 am

Kareem a-Weet wrote:You state that the non-legislated coverages are the profitable ones. I don't know if you have seen a statistical breakdown of that information - I haven't. Is that why the private insurers want to get into the business? Or should the mandate of ICBC be to ensure that everyone who drives in BC has insurance?


As, has been said, private is already in the business.

? "Should the mandate of ICBC be to ensure that everyone who drives in BC has insurance ?" ?

Only issuing plates when obtained with insurance (or validation decals)
Insurance validity available to police, via their computers
Only one validation decal per vehicle

I don't know how much more ICBC could do.

I'd say the percentage of insured vehicles in BC is as high or higher that any jurisdiction.

Quality of the insurance is much higher than the US

Kareem a-Weet wrote:Use a bit of lateral thinking, Twobits. A card at the gas pump with your and your car's information could add a premium to the cost of gas. For straight renewals, anyway. More gas you use, the costlier the premium.


So if your vehicle gets more kms per litre you pay less for car insurance ?

How many investigators do you think you'd need to police the new black market in gas sales ???

Someone living in Osoyoos, could get free insurance, just buy gas in the US.

Not the craziest idea I've ever heard, but certainly in the running.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Catsumi » Jan 30th, 2019, 10:42 am

^^^ duh! You're correct. I too hadn't considered the lucky ones close to USA gas bars. :135:
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Merry » Jan 30th, 2019, 11:08 am

I do like the idea of being able to buy our ICBC coverage online (or over the phone) the same way we can buy the private portion of our insurance.

But, if we take away the revenue from all the private companies currently working as agents for ICBC, they'll probably be unwilling to continue with the DL renewal portion of the business. Which means that work would have to be transferred to a Government Office (which is where it should have remained in the first place IMO). But I wonder if the cost of reverting DL issuing back to purely Government Offices, would offset any savings resulting from selling ICBC insurance online?
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Hassel99 » Jan 30th, 2019, 11:24 am

Merry wrote:I do like the idea of being able to buy our ICBC coverage online (or over the phone) the same way we can buy the private portion of our insurance.

But, if we take away the revenue from all the private companies currently working as agents for ICBC, they'll probably be unwilling to continue with the DL renewal portion of the business. Which means that work would have to be transferred to a Government Office (which is where it should have remained in the first place IMO). But I wonder if the cost of reverting DL issuing back to purely Government Offices, would offset any savings resulting from selling ICBC insurance online?



My Experience is the government is not able to provide better service for less than private market.
You would still have to pay all the agents that now work for ICBC, but now they are in the ICBC union. You still need retail shops to give out the plates and perform the registration. Now ICBC can double dip and have the Private agents deal with all the registration and deal with the plates for free.

Merry did you not make a huge post about a single remark from an ICBC agent about your policy that kept you up at night? Imagine if you did not understand the online question in the same vein hit NO when you should have Hit YES and now your insurance is voided...or your coverage is in question.

At lease with a private insurance agent you have a recourse to go back on their E&O insurance.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby my5cents » Jan 30th, 2019, 11:26 am

OK, this news item will get folks going so let's address it...

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#247978

"ICBC needs competition"......According to Aaron Sutherland, Pacific vice president of the Insurance Bureau of Canada...…

For starters, don't get fooled. We often think the word "Bureau" indicates some sort of government agency, "hey it's got to be trustworthy and official... it's a bureau !"

Well it's not. It's a lobbyist for the private insurance industry.

So, Aaron, let's tell some "truths" :

"We believe British Columbians should be able to shop around like they do in virtually every other aspect of their lives, to find the best product that at the best price that best suits their needs," Sutherland said. "We can't do that here in B.C. we can't do that."

As a result, British Columbians pay more for auto insurance than anywhere else in the country."


So the reason we pay more is because we can't shop around ? We can't find the best product ? That suits our needs ?

We are talking about the first $200,000 Public Liability Coverage, right ? So what could be different if we "shopped around" ?

Has to be that amount - So nothing to shop for there
There is no deductible - So would you want to shop for a policy that had a deductible ? You hit someone and you have to pay the first thousand to them yourself ? Don't forget this coverage doesn't cover you, it covers everyone but you.

Part of your basic coverage is your No Fault Benefits. (don't confuse that with No Fault Tort) It covers you, even if the collision is your fault, you get medical, you get some wage loss, you get rehab, some death benefits. It also has the benefit of covering anyone in you household, if for example they are hurt in a collision that doesn't involve a BC vehicle. As a pedestrian, etc etc. I remember a kid was run down crossing the street in Seattle, stolen vehicle, took off etc. What to do, how is this going to be paid for, medical, rehab, transportation back. Simple... ICBC.

Do you want to save some money and drop No Fault ? All provinces have forms of it. If not for No Fault, the costs would fall on our health system, and our social services systems. So if we had private insurance take over and sell less coverage for No Fault, do we want those short falls to be picked up by our taxes ? Aren't we then subsidizing the private insurance industry with our own taxes ??

What good old Aaron hasn't told you is, is there is a reason our insurance has increased compared to other jurisdictions and it has NOTHING to do with competition. It's got to do with our courts and our BC laws. The other provinces have brought in caps and minimums for minor injury claims. Our "good old" Liberal government commissioned a study on auto insurance in BC. The study identified that we needed a threshold no fault system for tort claims, like the other provinces.

When the study was released, guess what ?? That section of the report was missing. ? What ? Yes we went merrily along, with the Liberals stealing cash from ICBC and allowing the plaintiff bar to keep sucking on the *bleep* of ICBC.

SEE: Vancouver Sun "Read the Report the Liberals didn't want you to see" https://vancouversun.com/news/politics/ ... you-to-see

If you break down your auto insurance, you have three basic parts.

    Basic Coverage - The first $200 G liability, Hit and Run, No Fault, etc

    Excess Liability - All liability coverage above $200 G, ICBC sells up to $5 million

    Own Damage - Coverage on your own vehicle, collision, comprehensive, specified perils, etc

If you price out the Excess Liability and Own Damage, you will find some private to be cheaper and some more expensive, ICBC is certainly in the ball park.

We've all read about the court settlements for tort claims. Do you really think that ICBC is over charging on Basic Coverage because they have a monopoly and is competitive on the rest because of competition ?

Don't forget ICBC is competitive on the optional while being fleeced of, the Fraser Institute says $2.5 Billion.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby Hassel99 » Jan 30th, 2019, 11:35 am

Aaron Sutherland is a shill for big intentional insurance companies. They pay his salary.

He releases this same content every 6 months. Its his job to make more market for larger international insurance corporations.



What he does not tell you is that Private jurisdictions are int he exact same trouble as BC.
Rates are capped in Alberta, the idea that there is competition is a faulty. Rates are capped at the top and and no insuer is below the cap.

Private insurance companies are LEAVING Alberta because they are in the same boat as ICBC< losing money.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics ... s-industry

The insurance industry says some Albertans could end up without car insurance and some companies may pull out of the province because of the NDP government’s cap on premium increases.


George Hodgson, chief executive officer of the brokers association, said the government has essentially frozen premiums even as the cost of claims — both for bodily injury and damage to vehicles — have been increasing substantially.

In an interview this week, Hodgson said insurance companies are taking a loss on auto claims, leading some to cancel contracts with brokers, while others are contemplating leaving the Alberta market entirely.

“They don’t want to lose any more money,” he said.

“This is an untenable situation.”

Under provincial law, insurers are required to provide auto insurance to paying customers.

But Lance Miller, CEO of online brokerage firm Surex Direct, said insurance companies are “filtering” clients by only selling liability insurance and refusing to provide non-mandatory collision and compensation insurance to certain customers.


But Celyeste Power, the Insurance Bureau of Canada’s acting vice-president for Western Canada, said the minor injury cap, while welcome, doesn’t offset “spiralling” claim costs.

She said companies are already paying out between $1.01 and $1.29 on auto claims in Alberta for every dollar brought in from premiums.

Power said the cap on premium increases appears to be politically motivated and the industry is concerned it will be extended past next spring’s provincial election in order to avoid significant rate hikes in the run-up to the vote.

“If that happens, the industry could be losing between $300 million and $600 million next year,” she said.



Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby my5cents » Jan 30th, 2019, 11:41 am

Merry wrote:I do like the idea of being able to buy our ICBC coverage online (or over the phone) the same way we can buy the private portion of our insurance.

But, if we take away the revenue from all the private companies currently working as agents for ICBC, they'll probably be unwilling to continue with the DL renewal portion of the business. Which means that work would have to be transferred to a Government Office (which is where it should have remained in the first place IMO). But I wonder if the cost of reverting DL issuing back to purely Government Offices, would offset any savings resulting from selling ICBC insurance online?


Only a very few insurance brokers are "Appointed Agents". For each it's a great perk, it gets people in to their office to renew licenses and possibly purchase other insurance products. Most areas that are service by a Government Office, called "Service BC" handle licensing themselves. The exception that comes to mind is Oliver, which has a Service BC office, but doesn't issue driver's licenses, it's done at an Appointed Agent, that being an insurance broker's office.

Larger centres actually have ICBC Driver's License offices.

I completely agree with you that if an area is serviced by a Service BC office, that office should issue driver's licenses.

I strongly suspect that when ICBC started, part of the "deal" to get support from the insurance agents was to create the agent system we have. Insurance of all kinds is based on "filling the pockets" of those at each step of the process.

Talk to any life insurance agent and see what percentage of a life premium they get.
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Re: ICBC: Losses could be $1.3 billion

Postby my5cents » Jan 30th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Hassel99 wrote:My Experience is the government is not able to provide better service for less than private market.
You would still have to pay all the agents that now work for ICBC, but now they are in the ICBC union. You still need retail shops to give out the plates and perform the registration. Now ICBC can double dip and have the Private agents deal with all the registration and deal with the plates for free.

Merry did you not make a huge post about a single remark from an ICBC agent about your policy that kept you up at night? Imagine if you did not understand the online question in the same vein hit NO when you should have Hit YES and now your insurance is voided...or your coverage is in question.

At lease with a private insurance agent you have a recourse to go back on their E&O insurance.


"You would still have to pay all the agents that now work for ICBC, but now they are in the ICBC union."

What ? AutoPlan agents are in the ICBC union ????

"Now ICBC can double dip and have the Private agents deal with all the registration and deal with the plates for free."

What ? You are saying AutoPlan agents don't get commissions ?
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Re: ICBC

Postby Hassel99 » Jan 30th, 2019, 12:36 pm

No

I am saying if you get rid of the independent auto plan agents we have now and make them in house ICBC staff they will have to join the ICBC (government workers) union.

Also,
Autoplan agents get a commission for selling insurance, but they do not get a commission for registering a vehicle or collecting the TAX or the licensing fee for the province. So if if you create a whole new division to distribute plates and register vehicles, collect tax and licensing fees, or move it into Service BC, you have to pay the employees to do that work, were as right now Autoplan brokers are doing it for free as they will be paid on the commission for the insurance that follows the registration and often is included int he same transaction.

If you separate them, you have to set up a whole new infrastructure for the distribution of plates, registration, tax collection etc.. that currently ICBC does not have to pay for.
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