Problems plague Site C

Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby seewood » Dec 20th, 2018, 4:01 pm

butcher99 wrote:Subsidies for wind and solar are becoming a thing of the past. With the falling costs to construct them they are no longer required.


Care to show a jurisdiction where the "at the household plug" the electricity is cheap, available 24/7 and not subsidized by government with solar or windy?

I'd love to know. Might become a little more enthusiastic about wind and solar then.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 20th, 2018, 4:54 pm

seewood wrote:I'd love to know. Might become a little more enthusiastic about wind and solar then.


just admit it. you hate solar and you are unwilling to look beyond your prejudices. And you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 20th, 2018, 4:57 pm

Merry wrote:
48281742_2308386946050057_5700993667196518400_n.jpg



not Irony, reality. Nuclear waste bubbling out of one of the thousands of 45 gallon drums in which it is stored. Cleanup 2 billion.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 20th, 2018, 5:03 pm

butcher99 wrote:
Merry wrote:
48281742_2308386946050057_5700993667196518400_n.jpg



not Irony, reality. Nuclear waste bubbling out of one of the thousands of 45 gallon drums in which it is stored. Cleanup 2 billion.


Chicken little nonsense. Next we will see a picture of the Exxon Valdez.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 20th, 2018, 5:09 pm

butcher99 wrote:
mikest2 wrote:
You are right that wind turbines are very labour intensive maintenance wise, that, of course factors in to the increased costs of operating them. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to schedule the maintenance shutdowns for when the wind wasn't blowing !

Oh, you mean like the 25 billion Ontario is and has spent since 2010 updating nuclear facilities? How was the wind blowing in Ontario when they had to shut down the Bruce nuclear plant for years to update it. Updates that are going on today.

Yes, despite the massive cost to Ontario customers you still blame the 4-7% of the power produced in Ontario for all cost of power.


How about the $53 billion they are spending on wind and solar subsidies.

So $53 billion for 4% of usable electricity or $25 billion for 61% of their usable electricity. Hmmm... only in NDP "math" is not nuclear the clear winner. That works out to the investment in nuclear being 50.6 times better than wind and solar.....

You put the numbers out there. Do the analysis. Wind and solar are less than useless in a grid situation.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 20th, 2018, 5:52 pm

hobbyguy wrote:
How about the $53 billion they are spending on wind and solar subsidies.

So $53 billion for 4% of usable electricity or $25 billion for 61% of their usable electricity. Hmmm... only in NDP "math" is not nuclear the clear winner. That works out to the investment in nuclear being 50.6 times better than wind and solar.....

You put the numbers out there. Do the analysis. Wind and solar are less than useless in a grid situation.


Which orafice did you pull that figure out of?
"Electricity generation in Ontario in 2016 averaged 11.14 cents per kilowatt hour. The most recent procurement of wind energy resulted in an average price of 8.45 cents with one project coming in at 6.45 cents. Hydro-electric power is clean and low cost, but there are few economic sites left to develop. Power from a refurbished Darlington Nuclear station will reportedly increase from 5.9 cents in 2016 to 16.8 cents by 2026. Meanwhile, the cost of electricity from natural gas is also poised to increase significantly over time. For example, the commodity price of natural gas increased from 11.6 cents per cubic metre in October 2016 to 16.0 cents in January 2017 as the province levied its initial carbon price on gas.:"

https://canwea.ca/blog/2017/04/24/wind- ... troy-myth/
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby seewood » Dec 20th, 2018, 6:00 pm

butcher99 wrote:just admit it. you hate solar and you are unwilling to look beyond your prejudices.



Stop with the deflections. I'm sure solar has a place where no other options are available. Saudi Arabia for example? Hate Solar, not really, I know a family that have put in a very expensive solar panel set up with expensive batteries so they can re-charge their two Tesla's every night. Cheaper than Fortis hydro, personally I doubt it with a pay back of a of years

"And you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is."

Nope, my mouth says Hydro in BC is best for the majority of the population, so I pay our electrical bill every month. Fortis hydro has been great.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 20th, 2018, 6:30 pm

butcher99 wrote:
hobbyguy wrote:
How about the $53 billion they are spending on wind and solar subsidies.

So $53 billion for 4% of usable electricity or $25 billion for 61% of their usable electricity. Hmmm... only in NDP "math" is not nuclear the clear winner. That works out to the investment in nuclear being 50.6 times better than wind and solar.....

You put the numbers out there. Do the analysis. Wind and solar are less than useless in a grid situation.


Which orafice did you pull that figure out of?
"Electricity generation in Ontario in 2016 averaged 11.14 cents per kilowatt hour. The most recent procurement of wind energy resulted in an average price of 8.45 cents with one project coming in at 6.45 cents. Hydro-electric power is clean and low cost, but there are few economic sites left to develop. Power from a refurbished Darlington Nuclear station will reportedly increase from 5.9 cents in 2016 to 16.8 cents by 2026. Meanwhile, the cost of electricity from natural gas is also poised to increase significantly over time. For example, the commodity price of natural gas increased from 11.6 cents per cubic metre in October 2016 to 16.0 cents in January 2017 as the province levied its initial carbon price on gas.:"

https://canwea.ca/blog/2017/04/24/wind- ... troy-myth/


The wind industry is trying desperately to spin it otherwise, but everybody knows that things went awry as soon as they got their greedy subsidy mining mitts on the pie. The $53 billion is well documented. But don't ever let facts get in your way - that would betray the flawed little green* book ideology.

Ontario, once they realized their folly (far too late), started cancelling wind projects - which of course the nice guys at canwea sued them over. Funny, you classify everything from oil companies and their associations as propaganda,but swallow the same baloney propaganda from canwea. I agree, much of what the oil company associations put out is propaganda, but so is canwea's stuff - it is their job to put out disinformation.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 20th, 2018, 7:34 pm

hobbyguy wrote:Ontario, once they realized their folly (far too late), started cancelling wind projects - which of course the nice guys at canwea sued them over. Funny, you classify everything from oil companies and their associations as propaganda,but swallow the same baloney propaganda from canwea. I agree, much of what the oil company associations put out is propaganda, but so is canwea's stuff - it is their job to put out disinformation.


if it is so well documented, where would that be?

Again you are all talk and no action.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 20th, 2018, 8:36 pm

hobbyguy wrote:

not Irony, reality. Nuclear waste bubbling out of one of the thousands of 45 gallon drums in which it is stored. Cleanup 2 billion.


Chicken little nonsense. Next we will see a picture of the Exxon Valdez.[/quote]

No, that is not nonsense but fact. Something I deal in. It is something you could have checked before you made your post. But of course you didn't.

Still waiting for where you got your 53 billion dollar subsidy from. This is what the US paid in subsidies last year to wind. Subsidies that will disappear in 2 more years. In 2012 Forbes said wind power would go away because of a cut in subsidies yet it is bigger and better and cheaper than ever.
"Wind projects in the US received $1.27 billion in subsidies and support in 2016, down from $6.19 billion in 2013, the latest figures from the country's Energy Information Administration" And remember that in a couple more years there will be no subsidies and yet the contracts continue at cheaper and cheaper rates. Now at prices about 2 cents than Ontario is paying for Nuclear. And with no subsidies.

so where did your $53,000,000,000 dollar figure come from. Or was it 56? According to you it is common knowledge. More of that "I feel in my gut it must be true so therefore, it is"
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 20th, 2018, 9:05 pm

butcher99 wrote:
hobbyguy wrote:Ontario, once they realized their folly (far too late), started cancelling wind projects - which of course the nice guys at canwea sued them over. Funny, you classify everything from oil companies and their associations as propaganda,but swallow the same baloney propaganda from canwea. I agree, much of what the oil company associations put out is propaganda, but so is canwea's stuff - it is their job to put out disinformation.


if it is so well documented, where would that be?

Again you are all talk and no action.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ontarios-soaring-electricity-costs-result-of-poor-government-policies/

"In 2009, the province introduced the Green Energy Act, aimed at expanding renewable energy production. To help cover the costs associated with the act, the government introduced a surcharge called the Global Adjustment fee.

That fee grew by more than 70 per cent between 2008 and 2016, causing a dramatic spike in electricity prices"

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/07/21/ontario-hydro-rates_n_11107590.html

“In Ontario, only three other categories in the CPI have risen faster than electricity since 2002 — water charges, home insurance and cigarettes. But in the past seven years, nothing has risen faster than electricity prices.”

Ontario’s prices are being driven up by a number of factors, including subsidies for the province’s green energy program."

We have been over this before in the thread. Don't like those ones - google is your friend, but beware the wind industry trying to obfuscate. The reality is, as Warren Buffet says, nobody would build wind and solar without the massive subsidies.

And even in trying to cover up, the facts on stupid FITs are clear and what this minister omits, i that without FITs (which include guaranteed uptake - whether electricity is needed or not) nobody will build wind and solar because it makes no economic sense. https://globalnews.ca/news/3272095/ontario-energy-minister-admits-mistake-with-green-energy-program/

ALL wind and solar projects are IPPs - and as John Horgan correctly stated - IPP power is "junk power". The Liberals knew that too, and site C was giving them the room to start dumping the IPPs as the contracts ran out - that was part of the plan.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 21st, 2018, 11:47 am

hobbyguy wrote:

Ontario’s prices are being driven up by a number of factors, including subsidies for the province’s green energy program."



Did you read your quote? Ontarios prices are being driven up by a number of factors. And here I include your bold including subsidies for the province’s green energy program. Would you care to include the others? Would you care to include how much nuclear electricity has gone up since then? Would you care to include how much delivery charges have gone up since then?
Nobody is arguing that part of the problem was not government policies. There were many many factors that lead to the increase in electricity prices. Including but not limited to a massive multi billion dollar upgrade (feel free to look that number up, the amount will astound you) and a continuing 15 billion dollar upgrade program.
While the conservative were in they were so worried about balancing the budget they did keep up with infrastructure upgrades so those had to be done as well. There were many more factors as well.

Blaming wind power which produced only from 4-7% of the power used in Ontario just shows how out of touch you are. Nuclear now gets 7 cents per kwh without distribution.

I am still waiting for the link to anything about the 53 billion dollars subsidy for wind energy. I can't find a link to this well know fact that you quoted. Perhaps you can enlighten us.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 21st, 2018, 1:08 pm

https://torontosun.com/2017/06/01/ontarios-fair-hydro-act-a-ponzi-scheme/wcm/9feb5d3b-9e1e-4567-96ab-e0709cd590f7

"Simply put, the government buys high-cost electricity from operators of renewable energy projects, authorized under the Green Energy Act, at multiples of the market price, and then adds that excess to consumer prices."

https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/media/Fair_hydro_MR

"The estimated $45 billion cost to the Province assumes that the Province is able to achieve and maintain a balanced budget over 29 years. If the Province is required to fund the FHP through debt, then the cost to the Province could increase to between $69 billion and $93 billion"

There ya go, and if you bothered to follow things, there are plenty more links back in this thread. And don't forget to add all the subsidies Ontario paid out to Siemens to make wind turbines in Ontario - only to have Siemens close up shop the instant the subsidies ended. So much for "green* jobs".
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 21st, 2018, 2:32 pm

hobbyguy wrote:https://torontosun.com/2017/06/01/ontarios-fair-hydro-act-a-ponzi-scheme/wcm/9feb5d3b-9e1e-4567-96ab-e0709cd590f7

"Simply put, the government buys high-cost electricity from operators of renewable energy projects, authorized under the Green Energy Act, at multiples of the market price, and then adds that excess to consumer prices."

https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/media/Fair_hydro_MR

"The estimated $45 billion cost to the Province assumes that the Province is able to achieve and maintain a balanced budget over 29 years. If the Province is required to fund the FHP through debt, then the cost to the Province could increase to between $69 billion and $93 billion"

There ya go, and if you bothered to follow things, there are plenty more links back in this thread. And don't forget to add all the subsidies Ontario paid out to Siemens to make wind turbines in Ontario - only to have Siemens close up shop the instant the subsidies ended. So much for "green* jobs".


The Ontario Fair Hydro Plan is aimed at reducing the costs of electricity to the people of Ontario. You are again blaming all this on the 4-7% of power that Ontario gets from wind power and ignoring the infrastructure upgrades and nuclear upgrades.
The cost of this 4-7% of power from wind is about 10-13 cents per kwh. The cost of power from the nuclear plants is almost 8 cents and at present that is 55% or more of the total electricity used in. The FHP is about lowering hydro (electricity) costs in Ontario to the final user.

The cost of wind power (new) has gone down continually. The cost of your much loved (by you) nuclear power is now almost 8 cents per kwh.
And on the subject of nuclear power, have you ever looked at the subsidies paid to nuclear plants when they were starting up as wind and solar were a few years ago? They received massive subsidies. Over time as the technology progressed and costs went down, those subsidies were lowered.
Bad deals by the governments, (remember run of the rivers?) may cost money but that is not the fault of the producer but of the bad deals the government made.

Your 56 billion is a bogus made up number inflated nine was from sunday.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 21st, 2018, 4:17 pm

butcher - nah. You just don't want to deal with it. Ontario consumer rates in 2008 were $.088/kWh. 2009 the bogus windy-solar green* energy plan started. At the end of 2009 rates were $.093/kWh, 2010 $.099/kWh. 2011 $.108/kWh. 2012 $.118. 2013 $.129/kWh. 2014 $.140/kWh. 2015 $.1750. By May 2016 $.180/kWh - and the political interference started.

It is really, really simple. In 2009 Ontario went windy-solar and the costs went through the roof. The more wind and solar - the faster the rates went up.

I get it, your ideology does not allow you get past the obvious facts that are staring you in the face. Time to take off the ideological filters - wind and solar are a mess.

The reality is that everywhere you look around the world, those countries/jurisdictions that went silly windy-solar have ridiculously high electricity prices.

Just to give you another perspective: https://www.reuters.com/article/germany-electricity-retail/german-household-power-prices-at-record-high-verivox-idUSL8N1MZ30X

“The price of a kilowatt hour (kWh) on average has reached a new all-time high of 28.18 euro cents (33 US cents) ... this means power has become 3 percent more expensive compared with the previous year,” Verivox said in a statement."

SNIP

"The run-away expansion of wind turbines and solar panels has made German prices the highest in Europe since 2013, not just because of surcharges but because more volatile green power capacity also necessitates new transmission grids and higher costs to manage them. "

http://www.pfbach.dk/firma_pfb/pfb_skyrocketing_electricity_cost_2014.pdf

"A significantly different development began in 2000. From 2001 to 2012 the basic electricity cost increased by 83% while the
increase of the retail price index was only 25%. During this period the cost of electricity was an increasing burden to the Danes."

SNIP

"The support for wind power was paid be the Danish state until 15 August 1999. After that time the electricity consumers had to pay the more than DKK 800 million per year. "

SNIP

"Energinet.dk has invested more than DKK 15 billion since 2005. The new assets include in-terconnections, feeders for offshore wind parks, new transmission lines and synchronous compensators. All these technical plant are justified by the green transition. Therefore the depreciation for technical plants (DKK 1.5 billion in 2013) should be seen as a transition cost
on the top of PSO."

SNIP

"The wind energy production exceeded 30% of the electricity consumption and the difference between average import and
export prices has become significant. "


Yup, Denmark is selling wind power at a loss because it doesn't meet the needs when required, and then importing coal fored power to meet the needs when required.

And so it goes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Politicians trolling for votes jump on the little green* book ideology, go windy-solar and make their residents poor. https://stopthesethings.com/2017/12/02/guilty-subsidised-wind-solar-drive-australias-rocketing-retail-power-prices/

ALL you have to do is look at that chart - the more wind and solar - the higher the price. Canada - with hardly any wind and solar except a small bit in Ontario (by far the highest electricity prices in Canada) - has average prices that well below the bottom of the chart.

But never mind, all these numbers and complexities don't match the little green* book ideological constipation - so they must be wrong eh?
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