Problems plague Site C

Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 21st, 2018, 3:38 pm

hobbyguy wrote:butcher - nah. You just don't want to deal with it. Ontario consumer rates in 2008 were $.088/kWh. 2009 the bogus windy-solar green* energy plan started. At the end of 2009 rates were $.093/kWh, 2010 $.099/kWh. 2011 $.108/kWh. 2012 $.118. 2013 $.129/kWh. 2014 $.140/kWh. 2015 $.1750. By May 2016 $.180/kWh - and the political interference started.

?



yes, it is really simple. Ontario hydro is now paying almost 8 cents per kwh for nuclear power which is 55% of their purchases. They pay from 10 to 13 now for wind power which accounts for only 4 to7% of their purchases.
In 2010 Ontario hydro paid 15 billion dollars over the three years you mentioned to upgrade the nuclear plants. Feel free to check that figure. I don't feel like looking it up again. lets call it 10 billion.

You did not address the huge subsidies that Nuclear got when it was in the start up phase though.

Read this one. http://www.ccnr.org/subsidies.html Then change nuclear to wind and put your name on top. Would fit in perfectly with what you are saying about wind yet now after all the subsidies you say nuclear is the way to go.

There is seldom any new technology that gets going without a subsidy. Once they get going and prices drop then so do the subsidies. The same as happened with nuclear. Even the Erie Canal which was built in 1812 needed subsidies.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 21st, 2018, 3:59 pm

butcher - pick and choose an obfuscate all you want. Hydroelectric is the best, nuclear second, and wind and solar are totally useless.

The little green* book adherence to wind and solar is dumb, dumb and dumber. It is counterproductive to all other efforts.

And that's why site C is the cornerstone of the new NDG "climate action plan".
Anyone but Scheer - career pols are know nothings.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 21st, 2018, 4:18 pm

hobbyguy wrote:butcher - pick and choose an obfuscate all you want. Hydroelectric is the best, nuclear second, and wind and solar are totally useless.

The little green* book adherence to wind and solar is dumb, dumb and dumber. It is counterproductive to all other efforts.

And that's why site C is the cornerstone of the new NDG "climate action plan".


I have not obfuscated at all. I covered nothing up. Everything I posted was fact! Everything I posted was easily understood. Nuclear did get massive subsidies at the start. There is no 56 billion dollar charge because of wind in Ontario. Wind power in Ontario gets about 45% more than nuclear power does per kwh but it is only from 4-7% of the total power produced. And it only get that because of poor contracts signed by the liberals. New contracts are let for less than nuclear. Your rage against the machine just does not pass the test.
Yes, wind and solar have problems. They just do not produce 100% of the time.

OLD hydro electric is cheap. Old nuclear is cheap. As seen by Muskrat falls, the new Manitoba site and site C they really are not cheap anymore. New wind costs the same as new hydro now or less (tech tends to get cheaper as time passes). Nuclear has problems as evidenced by the billions being pumped into it in Ontario to upgrade and the brownouts they had when they had to shut down Bruce. To cover those billions Ontario had to commit to almost 8 cents per kwh for new nuclear contracts. Not so cheap anymore is it. And that is for old existing plants
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 21st, 2018, 5:51 pm

butcher - you are stuck. The little green* book ideology won't let you see the facts.

NO windy-solar grid jurisdiction has affordable, reliable, abundant electricity without subsidies. NONE of them can match the even the price premium for nuclear.

You won't see it, but it is really simple, no intermittent source is suitable to supply what grid markets demand. That is consistent adjustable scalable electricity when needed. NOT just if and when the wind blows, NOT just if and when the sun is shining. Electricity demands fluctuate by time of day and by season. I can see it now, you come home from work and you want to trun up the heat, cook dinner, maybe watch some TV - but oops! - no electricity, the sun ain't shining and the wind ain't blowin'!

There are work arounds - but they are very, very, expensive. Work arounds always are, and they introduce inefficiencies - pumped hydro for example - loses 20% of the generated electricity used to do the pumping.

Then you need to consider the cost of the spiderweb of transmission systems you need to collect and deliver all that spread out sometimes power. That has a huge cost as well as a huge environmental impact.

It just doesn't work in the real world. I know, people will try to sell the idea that you can use the hydro dams o store water to compensate for silliness of wind and solar. BUT, that means shutting down hydro dams when they should be making $$$, and so you destroy the economics of the hydro dam.

A grid system is an ecology. It has rhythms and it has consistent needs. Wind and solar match neither of those - and so they act only as parasites. The end result is very simple, wind and solar drive up systems costs. That shows up in the real world in the fact that every single grid jurisdiction with wind and solar has out of control electricity prices.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby butcher99 » Dec 22nd, 2018, 8:00 pm

Just as nuclear needed subsidies to start wind and solar needed subsidies to start. Those subsidies are going away as technology improves. Fast. You can live in your dark cave and refuse to move with the times or you can accept that technology will improve over time as it always does. New hydro now costs more than new solar and wind and the spread will only get larger.

Certainly there is a place for hydro power in BC. Especially established hydro power.

If site C is showing us anything it is that new hydro power is very expensive. The best sites are gone. They are producing electricity. Cheap reliable electricity. There is no heat up power up needed for hydro. Open the gates. Wind and to a much lesser extent in BC solar are the wave (pun intended) and you can either catch it or fall by the wayside.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby twobits » Dec 23rd, 2018, 4:08 pm

butcher99 wrote: New hydro now costs more than new solar and wind



*removed* I actually hope direct sun conversion and weather....be it wind or waves.....or any other of a multitude of Ma Natures kinetic energy storage opportunities that can be captured and converted become the way we power our needs.
Your problem is that the tech required is not here yet. I have no doubt that one day it will be but at this moment in time, I am not about to energy starve 3/4's of the world population into poverty because 5% of the population can buy an EV or Solar Array for their unimpeded comfort and lifestyle. All because you and some questionable gov't grant dependent never actually worked a day in their entire existence academics tell us we must change in 30 yrs or we will all perish.
Climate changes. It has for centuries and is well documented by actual science that can be measured by core samples of earth and ice and not some mega algorithm equations formulated by PHD's that owe 500k in student loans because they went "to school" for 20 yrs and will be bankrupt if they lose the Gov't teat that is their raison d'etre.
David Suzuki is the poster child of that cash grab funding stream. Throw in the CBC, a little ethnic stereotype of honour and integrity, and a movement is born for a money pit industry that continues to this day.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 24th, 2018, 12:02 pm

butcher99 wrote:Just as nuclear needed subsidies to start wind and solar needed subsidies to start. Those subsidies are going away as technology improves. Fast. You can live in your dark cave and refuse to move with the times or you can accept that technology will improve over time as it always does. New hydro now costs more than new solar and wind and the spread will only get larger.

Certainly there is a place for hydro power in BC. Especially established hydro power.

If site C is showing us anything it is that new hydro power is very expensive. The best sites are gone. They are producing electricity. Cheap reliable electricity. There is no heat up power up needed for hydro. Open the gates. Wind and to a much lesser extent in BC solar are the wave (pun intended) and you can either catch it or fall by the wayside.


As always you confuse capital cost with delivered cost. It is the only straw you can grasp at.

An 18 wheeler costs a heck of a lot more than an F150. Would you rather pay for freight delivered from Vancouver via 18 wheeler or via F150?

Capital cost doesn't matter. It is the delivered cost. Electricity is more akin to a service - like freight - than it is to a commodity. Just like with freight, the demand is variable. You need big stuff at high capital cost to achieve the efficiency to deliver at reasonable cost.

IF you build a site C or a nuclear plant, you need less land and you need only one transmission line to get electricity from that site to Vancouver. You need one step up transformer station, one step down transformer station, one set transmission lines. IF you build a raft of wind turbines, you need dozens and dozens of each of those transmission sections.

Using the truck analogy, if you need to move 90,000 lbs of freight from Vancouver to Kelowna, So yup, you are looking at about $280,000 capital cost for that big rig. You can buy 7 of the F150s for that capital cost. But wait, the 7 F150s can only deliver 11,000 lbs! So you need to buy not 7, but 56 F150s - at a cost of $2,240,000. OR you can run back and forth 56 times. Ah, but the F150 gets better fuel mileage! But wait, that is only 5 times as good - so it costs you 10 times as much for fuel for the F150s. Ah, but F150 drivers are lower wage cost. But you need 56 times as much labor! Ah, but big rig maintenance is more costly! But again, you need 56 times as much maintenance for the F150s. Oh wait, you need one big garage to park the big rig in! Oh, but now you need 56 small garages to park the F150s in! And so it goes.

In the end capital costs don't account for much of the cost of the end service/product. You have to look at total capital costs, labor costs, maintenance costs, fuel costs, storage costs, etc. etc.

So when you look at electricity delivery (it is useless to have a whack of electricity on a mountain top in the wind, or up north at site C if the demand is in Vancouver) you need to look at the whole system. You are delivering the electricity where and when needed for fluctuating demand. The required customer service is 99.99999% - which means you need to always have excess capacity.

When you go through all those calculations, and match up with what is needed, you find that wind and solar (or any intermittent source of supply) simply doesn't provide what is needed, nor do it at a reasonable delivered price.
Anyone but Scheer - career pols are know nothings.

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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby Smurf » Dec 24th, 2018, 2:25 pm

Well said hobbyguy, but I am afraid there are some that will never grasp reality.
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have of changing others.

The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes their way.

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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby The Green Barbarian » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:00 pm

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#246742

I know what my response to the unelected morally bankrupt UN would be. It would only involve one finger.
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby Snman » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Why are we subservient to the UN? Did Horgan approve site C, knowing the UN would meddle? The UN is a joke, yet they continually stick their nose in our business. Time to tell the UN to go pound sand, imho. What do others think?

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#246742
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby seewood » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:45 pm

I suspect they are deaf to the fact the FN's in the immediate area are fine with the dam and the benefits they will receive.
If they have been adequately consulted, regardless, the FN's do not have a veto. Does the UN decide now if they have been adequately consulted?
This resource development in BC is turning into a s :cuss: show.
Way back in last years posts, it was mentioned a couple of bands, think it was 90 kms away, were putting up a fuss as they were shut out of the $$$
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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby blueliner » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Snman wrote:Why are we subservient to the UN? Did Horgan approve site C, knowing the UN would meddle? The UN is a joke, yet they continually stick their nose in our business. Time to tell the UN to go pound sand, imho. What do others think?

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#246742

But we cant tell the UN to go pound sand , how is Justin Trudeau going to get his Noble Peace prize :cuss:
The UN fits right in with the Clinton Foundation imho

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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby Carrs Landing Viking » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:50 pm

The UN can go :cuss: themselves.

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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby dontrump » Jan 14th, 2019, 4:55 pm

Carrs Landing Viking wrote:The UN can go :cuss: themselves.


exactly my thoughts the day BC Hydro has to answer to some :cuss: that's in the un is never going to happen in my opinion

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Re: Problems plague Site C

Postby Smurf » Jan 15th, 2019, 11:05 am

I hope you're right but with our leadership in BC and Ottawa I wouldn't bet too much money on it.
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have of changing others.

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