The truth about the salmon and orca population crash

[flamingfingers]

The truth about extinction of species:

hg wrote:

Most importantly, population growth is slowing very significantly - especially outside of Africa. The world fertility rate is less than half of what it was. It has fallen to 2.4 children per woman and is trending down. 2.1 per woman is considered "stasis". All "western" nations are below stasis, with populations excluding immigration falling.

That last point is a big one. The primary problem has always been too many people.

Instead of putting efforts, money and regulations in place for preservation of a species, we should be putting efforts in to controlling the earth's population - birth control, easier abortion if requested by the female, voluntary vasectomy (clinic procedure), tubal ligation (clinic procedure) and financial incentives for couples to have no children.

We are breeding ourselves out of existence!!!

[mikest2]

^^What I got from reading the link you provided was there are several reasons our Orcas are endangered, two of them being too many seals, and too many sports fishers. So far we've managed to keep bitumen out of our coastal waters, but there are still far too many pollutants being dumped in there. The usual suspects love to blame human sewage but I believe that is only one of many pollutants that humankind is responsible for and must be addressed if we want all sea creatures to survive in our coastal waters.

This is an older piece, but worth as read, we might not blame seals and sports fishermen....................

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nvironment

[Mordu]

^^What I got from reading the link you provided was there are several reasons our Orcas are endangered, two of them being too many seals, and too many sports fishers. So far we've managed to keep bitumen out of our coastal waters, but there are still far too many pollutants being dumped in there. The usual suspects love to blame human sewage but I believe that is only one of many pollutants that humankind is responsible for and must be addressed if we want all sea creatures to survive in our coastal waters.

Did you get an e-mail from Craig Cantin on behalf of Elizabeth May, too? Will you write to the NEB c.c. Elizabeth May about your all encompassing beliefs including too many protected seals (scientifically claimed) and too many sport fishers (an unproven but accused industry) endangering the Orcas' food supply or simply about the possibility of a spill from tanker traffic as a yet to happen and have an undetermined effect?

[Mordu]

Yikes! A frankensentence above or what?

Anyhow.

From the Craig Cantin e-mail to me on behalf of Elizabeth May as an “ACTION ALERT – Help Stop Kinder Morgan.”

The court quashed the permits because it found that the Federal Cabinet should not have accepted the NEB report as grounds to base their decision on. The fatal flaws of the National Energy Board report, according to the court, were the exclusion of the project’s impact on marine shipping and the failure to consult with affected First Nations. In turn, this meant that the NEB did not assess the possible impact of this project on the endangered Southern Resident Killer Whales. With this ruling from the court, the government was forced to instruct the NEB to re-examine these issues and consult more meaningfully with First Nations.

This is what I’ll point out.

And what I hope First Nations will point out too.

Cull the Seals, Save the Whales!
October 9, 2018
http://niche-canada.org/2018/10/09/cull ... he-whales/
Earlier this summer, a group of fishermen, First Nations communities, and members of the fur industry called on the federal government to allow for a cull on seals and sea lions along the British Columbia coast.[1] The group, known as the Pacific Balance Pinnipeds Society (PBPS), argued that the quickest way to reverse declining Chinook salmon populations was to kill predatory seals and sea lions. They argued further that seals and sea lions posed a major threat, not only to migrating salmon, but also to “the endangered killer whales that feed on them.” PBPS member Ken Pearce stressed that by reducing the overall seal and sea lion population by roughly 50%, hundreds of metric tons of salmon could be made available for human harvesting, left to spawn, or “set aside for killer whales.”[2]

I wonder why May’s email didn’t point this protected species vs protected species conflict issue out to me?

And apparently the feds have already been approached about it.

I also know that she didn't support the proposal for a National Seal Products Day and how First Nations wasn't happy about that.

Now I think they'll be sorely disappointed if all she manages is to do is disrupt the tankers yet do nothing about the real issue.

Maybe I should warn her.

[Cactusflower]

https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#251018
The topic was about the salmon crash as well. This story tells of another reason why we shouldn't leave environmental protection to industry.

[hobbyguy]

The truth about extinction of species:

hg wrote:

Most importantly, population growth is slowing very significantly - especially outside of Africa. The world fertility rate is less than half of what it was. It has fallen to 2.4 children per woman and is trending down. 2.1 per woman is considered "stasis". All "western" nations are below stasis, with populations excluding immigration falling.

That last point is a big one. The primary problem has always been too many people.

Instead of putting efforts, money and regulations in place for preservation of a species, we should be putting efforts in to controlling the earth's population - birth control, easier abortion if requested by the female, voluntary vasectomy (clinic procedure), tubal ligation (clinic procedure) and financial incentives for couples to have no children.

We are breeding ourselves out of existence!!!

Although it is somewhat of an aside, the irony is that center-left and left voters support parties that really have not had this conversation in depth. There is a case to made that by allowing high levels of immigration "western" nations are providing a "safety valve" for countries that do not promote birth control, reproductive rights etc. - and from there the conversation gets all emotional.

The really is that our species is a predatory species, and what we are witnessing is a story that has played many thousands of times over eons. In terms of salmon, what we are seeing is that a very efficient predator has proliferated, and the end result is that the prey species population collapses. That is compounded by the fact that our land based activities displace the population replacement for salmon and steelhead. Many of those detrimental land based activities are driven by higher population levels and are predictable (although some are unintended). Our species can turn to other prey species, and plant based sources for food. Specialist predators that compete with us, like the SR Orcas, have no options - they can not adapt quickly enough.

The changing nature of humankind's predation is not an adaptability found in most predatory species. We shift from species to species with ease, and often with devastating effects on ecosystems. North America had vast herds of bison, but our efficient predation almost wiped them out - and what remains is a tiny tail of symbolic species survival. Then we replaced the bison with another prey species, cattle, that we could manage. The ecosystem that supported bison is virtually gone for as long as our species is around.

There is absolutely no way that with short term thinking and reactions that we can help the SR Orcas. Like it or not, their ecosystem is irreparably changed, and our chain of predation compounded with misplaced "do gooder" actions has them pretty much doomed to remain a very small population under extreme duress and headed for extinction. We used to prey on seals and sea lions. That removed a significant competing predator for the SR Orcas, which masked the ecosystem damage we were inflicting on the SR Orcas. The recent brouhaha over bear bangers and sea lions points out what has happened with those competing predators - they multiplied rapidly back into the ecosystem when we shifted our predation pattern - and like it or not, that means the SR Orcas became more pressured because we moved our predation away from pinipeds.

There are many, many more effects that we, as an introduced species, both wittingly and unwittingly inflict on Orca populations. UK waters now only support a grand total 8 Orcas - and they are forecast to go extinct. Wherever human populations increase and become dense, Orcas disappear. Orcas simply can not adapt. The Vancouver-Victoria complex has become an increasingly densely populated region and the combination of intentional and unintentional effects of that human population will inevitably result in Orcas being pushed out. We have irreparably changed their ecosystem - which in its salmon dependence extends onto the land. Remove greater Vancouver - and they would have a chance - but that is simply not going to happen. Orcas are not like coyotes and raccoons that are adaptable enough to cohabit the planet with us, they need truly wild spaces.

That circles right back to the conversation we should be having about immigration/population levels - one we are reluctant to have, in part because immigration is tied to our GDP - and like it or not, jobs and the proxy of GDP are a bigger concern for most.

[Cactusflower]

@HG.........I revisited this topic in order to add to the truth about the plight of the wild salmon in BC. The oil, gas, and mining corporations (and the NEB) are ignoring the environmental consequences of their actions and we can't allow them to continue.

This has very little to do with immigration or population control.

[hobbyguy]

@HG.........I revisited this topic in order to add to the truth about the plight of the wild salmon in BC. The oil, gas, and mining corporations (and the NEB) are ignoring the environmental consequences of their actions and we can't allow them to continue.

This has very little to do with immigration or population control.

Your ideological one track search for a way to blame others betrays you.

Oil, gas and mining industries are a byproduct of our population. Plus most of those industries are further inland and have little direct impact on salmon stocks. Just for fun google the damage lithium and rare earth mining are doing, and then think about your EV.

Each of us has an unavoidable impact. There is no purity to be found. It is highly likely that even 15,000 years ago humankind coming to North America doomed a significant number of species - and that was well before oil, gas and mining were a thing.

[Cactusflower]

@HG.........I revisited this topic in order to add to the truth about the plight of the wild salmon in BC. The oil, gas, and mining corporations (and the NEB) are ignoring the environmental consequences of their actions and we can't allow them to continue.

This has very little to do with immigration or population control.

Your ideological one track search for a way to blame others betrays you.

Oil, gas and mining industries are a byproduct of our population. Plus most of those industries are further inland and have little direct impact on salmon stocks. Just for fun google the damage lithium and rare earth mining are doing, and then think about your EV.

Each of us has an unavoidable impact. There is no purity to be found. It is highly likely that even 15,000 years ago humankind coming to North America doomed a significant number of species - and that was well before oil, gas and mining were a thing.

Sounds like a defeatist attitude to me, HG. At present, we have no way of controlling the planet's population, but we do have ways to control pollution. You need to go back to that Canada thread you were discussing with Omnitheo and watch the video he provided.

[hobbyguy]

^^ it not defeatist at all. It is pragmatic.

One can do what is possible to alleviate pollution, but fundamentally it is a function of population multiplied by consumption.

[Cactusflower]

^^ it not defeatist at all. It is pragmatic.

One can do what is possible to alleviate pollution, but fundamentally it is a function of population multiplied by consumption.

Call it what you will. People who continue to deny that we have all the tools necessary to put an end to fossil fuel pollution are either defeatists, or have some skin in the oil and gas industry game, IMO.

[Smurf]

I am not much up on any of this but in a small way I am probably part of the problem. I and most of my family like salmon, wild salmon to be truthful so I suppose in our own tiny way we are helping to deplete them. Maybe they should only sell farmed salmon and leave the wild ones for the orca. Having said that and thinking about what hobbyguy is saying about population it is also only reasonable that increased population puts a larger strain on the salmon in every way. More demand for the meat and much more demand for everything that causes pollution. I doubt there is anything out there that does not result some pollution in some way. I even think of the pollution caused by raw sewage going into the waters off Vancouver and Victoria and will bet that that is hurting the salmon and orca population as much as anything. That would be a perfect place to start as I'm sure it affects a lot more than the salmon and orca. I would love to see everything saved but number one is the human species and I am afraid as long as we are around nothing else will be truly safe. If as Cactusflower says we can't stop population growth then we are destined if we survive to wipe out everything we don't specifically raise, probably in a lab as time goes on. A bit of a downer I know but it is true.

[Fancy]

Also talking about salmon here:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=81356

[Cactusflower]

I am not much up on any of this but in a small way I am probably part of the problem. I and most of my family like salmon, wild salmon to be truthful so I suppose in our own tiny way we are helping to deplete them. Maybe they should only sell farmed salmon and leave the wild ones for the orca. Having said that and thinking about what hobbyguy is saying about population it is also only reasonable that increased population puts a larger strain on the salmon in every way. More demand for the meat and much more demand for everything that causes pollution. I doubt there is anything out there that does not result some pollution in some way. I even think of the pollution caused by raw sewage going into the waters off Vancouver and Victoria and will bet that that is hurting the salmon and orca population as much as anything. That would be a perfect place to start as I'm sure it affects a lot more than the salmon and orca. I would love to see everything saved but number one is the human species and I am afraid as long as we are around nothing else will be truly safe. If as Cactusflower says we can't stop population growth then we are destined if we survive to wipe out everything we don't specifically raise, probably in a lab as time goes on. A bit of a downer I know but it is true.

Goodness, Smurf, I had no idea you're such a pessimist, but I guess we all get a little down once in awhile when we realize what's happening to our planet and also realize how little we, as individuals, can do about it.

You and I have different ways of approaching the seriousness of it and the solutions though. You seem to think that of all the living things on earth, humans are the most worth saving. I see humans as the cause of every mess our planet has been in, from wars, to climate change, and everything in between. Why should we take priority over everything else?

You worry about pollution caused by a shortage of sewage treatment plants......human caused pollution. I worry about fossil fuel extraction/production.......again human caused. The salmon, whales, elk, bears, birds, etc. didn't cause the industrial revolution, but they're suffering the consequences even more than we are. Even the trees are suffering.

So what's the solution? We can say, "Let's cull a bunch of people. Over-population is the problem". Can you just imagine the chances of some government leader getting re-elected on that platform? Or how about, "Let's put everyone to work in the Alberta oil sands. Jobs are what we need, who cares if the result is a long, slow horrible death of every creature on earth, including humans?"

We stopped the use of aerosol containers because it was destroying the ozone layer, we stopped asbestos mining because it was killing people, we stopped the use of DDT because it was killing birds of prey, we're trying to stop Monsanto from killing bees, butterflies and all beneficial insects, and we're getting closer to stopping Big Tobacco from killing our kids. So why can't we stop Big Oil from killing the rest of the planet?

[hobbyguy]

^^ you don't get do you?

It takes up to 168% of the fossil fuels to make an EV. It takes fossil fuels to make the concrete for condos etc. It takes fossil fuels to mine and process the Lithium in EVs. It takes fossil fuels to make wind turbines. It takes fossil fuels to make and transport solar panels.

There is no free lunch. End of story. There is a minimum energy footprint required for a decent standard of living. We can replace a lot of it with safe nuclear energy at not too great a premium cost.

Each person born consumes a lot of energy. IF the population of greater Vancouver was where it was in the 1950s it would be an entirely different place. But it ain't, and you can't turn the clock back - the population has quintupled!

It is like the old questioning: is it ok to cut 1 tree in the forest? Is it ok to cut ALL the trees in the forest? If the GVRD was wood heated, and each person cut 1 tree for winter heat you can see the numbers: 562,000 in 1951 (when our forests seemed limitless), 2,463,000 in 2016 (when our forests are mostly no longer wild, and obviously not limitless).

It would not take very long to denude our province of trees if we burned up that many trees for heat - and that's just the GVRD.