Stop the Spray

Stop the Spray

Postby Cactusflower » Dec 31st, 2018, 10:35 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.4907358
Please sign the petition at Change.org.

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby GordonH » Dec 31st, 2018, 11:16 pm

Fastest growing trees in a reforest area are leafy trees, which causes the reforested trees to die out due lack of sunlight & water.
So you CF clearly dislike oil industry, don't care for mining industry & now you want curtail forestry industry.
Sounds like you believe peoples income comes from fairy dust or something as stupid.

Sorry not planning on signing anything.
When you have to start compromising yourself and your morals for the people around you, it’s probably time to change the people around you.

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Corneliousrooster » Jan 1st, 2019, 8:04 am

GordonH wrote:& now you want curtail forestry industry.
Sounds like you believe peoples income comes from fairy dust or something as stupid.

Sorry not planning on signing anything.


How does the forest industry profit from charred timber and ash? How is the tourism industry doing these past few summers? What percentage of forest industry tax revenue is used to combat the summer infernos?

Carry on industry, you clearly have this all figured out to the benefit of all - forestry incomes trumps intelligence (think of the fire fighting industry - they would have to rely on fairy dust instead of something stupid like profit at all costs forest practices).

I am sure what they are spraying is of great benefit for the watershed, game animals and fish - frick all that too!

Perhaps what is being sprayed is contributing to the insanely stupid collective that thinks the shortest, easiest path to $$$ is the be all end all - everything else should take a backseat mentality.

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby seewood » Jan 1st, 2019, 9:13 am

Hope all the people that sign this petition will build their house from Aspen.

That tree is good for nothing more than making toilet paper.

Also this is not a wide spread issue. Aspen has the ability to generate its own Nitrogen in sub standard soils. Like Red Alder, it will proliferate on old road bases and sandy soils.
This tree will grow 4 feet or more in a year while the conifer, depending on soil and water, may grow as much as two feet in a year or as little as 6 inches.
Spray the affected areas and keep the forest industry thriving as much as it can between the beetle killed forest and wild fires.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Cactusflower » Jan 1st, 2019, 10:17 am

Corneliousrooster wrote:
How does the forest industry profit from charred timber and ash? How is the tourism industry doing these past few summers? What percentage of forest industry tax revenue is used to combat the summer infernos?

Carry on industry, you clearly have this all figured out to the benefit of all - forestry incomes trumps intelligence (think of the fire fighting industry - they would have to rely on fairy dust instead of something stupid like profit at all costs forest practices).

I am sure what they are spraying is of great benefit for the watershed, game animals and fish - frick all that too!

Perhaps what is being sprayed is contributing to the insanely stupid collective that thinks the shortest, easiest path to $$$ is the be all end all - everything else should take a backseat mentality.


Ditto. Thank you, and Happy New Year!
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Fancy » Jan 1st, 2019, 11:34 am

Fancy this, Fancy that and by the way, T*t for Tat
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby twobits » Jan 1st, 2019, 4:08 pm

seewood wrote:Aspen has the ability to generate its own Nitrogen in sub standard soils. Like Red Alder, it will proliferate on old road bases and sandy soils.


This is the most important point of this discussion/dilemma and it is not even mentioned in the OP's posted article link. These deciduous tree species, where they naturally occur, are critical to the long term health of Conifer Forests because they are "nitrogen fixers". They are faster growing but shorter lived than conifers so what Ma Nature does is sprout these leafy tree's first to provide the actual nitrogen in the mineral soil so that the Conifers have the required nitrogen to thrive and in time surpass the deciduous trees and take over the forest.
Screwing with this natural cycle is just going to come back and bite with substandard Conifer growth in Nitrogen depleted soils unless in conjunction with these sprays we also fertilize the forests. The practicality of which I am suspect of.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Brass Monkey » Jan 1st, 2019, 7:02 pm

GordonH wrote:Fastest growing trees in a reforest area are leafy trees, which causes the reforested trees to die out due lack of sunlight & water.
So you CF clearly dislike oil industry, don't care for mining industry & now you want curtail forestry industry.
Sounds like you believe peoples income comes from fairy dust or something as stupid.

Sorry not planning on signing anything.


Oil industry, mining industry and lumber industry cause severe damage to the environment and sensitive eco systems. This petition isn’t a death sentence for lumber, quit exaggerating so heavily. The eceonomy is not more important than the environment.

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby dirtybiker » Jan 1st, 2019, 10:35 pm

twobits wrote: [snip]we also fertilize the forests.[snip]


Not up to speed on present day practices.
Throughout the mid to late 80's and through a good part of the 90's that is
exactly what we did.
Fertilize post harvest, post re-plant, reforestation projects by helicopter, I was led to believe that
the conifer growth was accelerated by 50%.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby seewood » Jan 2nd, 2019, 8:24 am

Another thing is Lodgepole pine is considered shade intolerant. That is the species likes direct sun for vigorous growth. When replanted after logging, the detritus left behind does act as fertilizer of sorts. Aspen also prefers direct sun and will grow much quicker than the pine and in thick stands will *bleep* pine growth. Engelmann spruce is more shade tolerant and will slowly grow just fine under an Aspen canopy albeit at lower densities.
Not sure about todays fertilizing practices but in the past, helicopters were used to fertilize tracts of regeneration or younger trees. Synthesized pigs urine was used if I remember correctly.
Goats have been used as a "natural" control of deciduous plant growth in stands of regen as well.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Corneliousrooster » Jan 2nd, 2019, 9:15 am

seewood wrote:Another thing is Lodgepole pine is considered shade intolerant. That is the species likes direct sun for vigorous growth. When replanted after logging, the detritus left behind does act as fertilizer of sorts. Aspen also prefers direct sun and will grow much quicker than the pine and in thick stands will *bleep* pine growth. Engelmann spruce is more shade tolerant and will slowly grow just fine under an Aspen canopy albeit at lower densities.
Not sure about todays fertilizing practices but in the past, helicopters were used to fertilize tracts of regeneration or younger trees. Synthesized pigs urine was used if I remember correctly.
Goats have been used as a "natural" control of deciduous plant growth in stands of regen as well.


How well does the lodgepole grow under thick clouds of smoke during the prime grow season? How much Lodgepole is harvested when there is a back country/parks/off road ban in place during the fire season? How much lodgepole pine is used to rebuild the homes and out buildings as a result of the out of control fires? How much higher are you wanting your insurance rates to increase to protect your home from fire? Does the forestry net income offset this?

Yes - probably better that humans control what grows where, the fertilizer, the burn frequency, the rate of harvest levels.

Maybe they should put the fires out with helicopters of pig *bleep* to kill 2 birds with 1 stone????

Nature creates a natural firewall and we are too stupid to use it - Why is selective falling of these "nuisance trees " in harvest zones not an acceptable alternative to water bombing the province every year? Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water - geez!

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby seewood » Jan 2nd, 2019, 10:10 am

Corneliousrooster wrote:How well does the lodgepole grow under thick clouds of smoke during the prime grow season?


Just fine apparently as fires/smoke and Pine have coexisted in BC for thousands of years.

Corneliousrooster wrote: How much Lodgepole is harvested when there is a back country/parks/off road ban in place during the fire season?


Not much actually. Most of the timber harvested in the interior is harvested when the ground is frozen

Corneliousrooster wrote: How much lodgepole pine is used to rebuild the homes and out buildings as a result of the out of control fires?

Lots. In BC our primary building wood is SPF- Spruce Pine and Fir. Fir in this case I believe is true fir or Balsam.

Corneliousrooster wrote:How much higher are you wanting your insurance rates to increase to protect your home from fire?

I don't, but then again I don't live in an interface area. I suspect homeowners are starting to dial into the fact that their home location may well be impacted by wild fires and can do things to mitigate a catastrophic loss. Insurance does not protect your home from fire. Insurance protects your financial loss should your house burn down

Corneliousrooster wrote:Does the forestry net income offset this?
?????

Corneliousrooster wrote:Yes - probably better that humans control what grows where, the fertilizer, the burn frequency, the rate of harvest levels.

They do their best.

Corneliousrooster wrote:Maybe they should put the fires out with helicopters of pig *bleep* to kill 2 birds with 1 stone????

Actually the fire retardant dropped from air tankers does just that. Its a mixture of water, clay, fertilizers and dye.

Corneliousrooster wrote:Nature creates a natural firewall and we are too stupid to use it - Why is selective falling of these "nuisance trees " in harvest zones not an acceptable alternative to water bombing the province every year? Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water - geez!

Aspen is not a natural fire wall. If you were on the fire lines in 03, you would have witnessed ambers flying over groves of Aspen trees igniting timber on the hill sides beyond. I cut down my share of burning Aspen trees during that fire.
So how do you get at these trees you want to selectively fall without damaging the surrounding preferred species, let alone falling them and damaging the conifers.
There are crews that do slash Aspen trees in regen stands when the Aspen is small. Same as my previously mentioned use of goats. Very expensive and I'm guessing a Round-Up spray covers a lot more ground for the dollar spent.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby Corneliousrooster » Jan 2nd, 2019, 11:21 am

seewood wrote:Just fine apparently as fires/smoke and Pine have coexisted in BC for thousands of years.


You just stated they were shade intolerant - there were communities this year that were cast in darkness midday from the smoke - fires/smoke and pine existed for thousands of years - but humans only started interfering with the natural order in the last couple of centuries (accelerating with each decade)

seewood wrote:Not much actually. Most of the timber harvested in the interior is harvested when the ground is frozen


hmm.... So all the interior mills, loggers, trucks they relocate for work until winter?
Not much because they are not allowed do to the fire hazard would have been a better answer



seewood wrote:I don't, but then again I don't live in an interface area. I suspect homeowners are starting to dial into the fact that their home location may well be impacted by wild fires and can do things to mitigate a catastrophic loss. Insurance does not protect your home from fire. Insurance protects your financial loss should your house burn down


Thanks for clearing that up, here I always thought that insurance protected from fire - knowing it only protects my financial loss makes me feel better about how the forests are currently managed


seewood wrote:They do their best.


Being that most of the province had to spend 1/2 the summer indoors the last few I would say that there is room for improvement

seewood wrote:Actually the fire retardant dropped from air tankers does just that. Its a mixture of water, clay, fertilizers and dye.


yes - all good forests should be sprayed with water clay fertilizer and dye - totally justifies abolishing deciduous growth (however did the forests manage before humans intervened....???)

seewood wrote:Aspen is not a natural fire wall. If you were on the fire lines in 03, you would have witnessed ambers flying over groves of Aspen trees igniting timber on the hill sides beyond. I cut down my share of burning Aspen trees during that fire.
So how do you get at these trees you want to selectively fall without damaging the surrounding preferred species, let alone falling them and damaging the conifers.
There are crews that do slash Aspen trees in regen stands when the Aspen is small. Same as my previously mentioned use of goats. Very expensive and I'm guessing a Round-Up spray covers a lot more ground for the dollar spent.


Sorry I mispoke with fire wall and should have instead said deterrent -

This is not rocket science - no one is saying that all aspens everywhere need to flourish and grow to their maximum ability. Some intelligent panning as to where to allow they to grow to create a slow down fire barrier - decisions made and implemented today wouldn't even show results for decades. Lets drag our feet even more while facing yearly inferno's cause god forbid we actually handicap the timber harvest for the greater good of the timber harvest......carry on - whatever you are doing is clearly working wonders (not sure how far your head has to be buried to see those wonders at work but the rest of us are ready for someone with a brain to make a change of some sort (hopefully for the better!)

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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby twobits » Jan 2nd, 2019, 6:58 pm

dirtybiker wrote:Not up to speed on present day practices.
Throughout the mid to late 80's and through a good part of the 90's that is
exactly what we did.
Fertilize post harvest, post re-plant, reforestation projects by helicopter, I was led to believe that
the conifer growth was accelerated by 50%.


And how has replant from helicopter dropped plugs of tree seedlings worked out? LOL.

Horrible. Stupid idea to get the plug into mineral soil rather than bounce off slash or a rock.
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Re: Stop the Spray

Postby seewood » Jan 2nd, 2019, 8:32 pm

Corneliousrooster wrote:You just stated they were shade intolerant - there were communities this year that were cast in darkness midday from the smoke - fires/smoke and pine existed for thousands of years - but humans only started interfering with the natural order in the last couple of centuries (accelerating with each decade)


Yes they are shade intolerant. I trust you are not inferring that the Lodgepole Pine trees are going to have a marked decrease in growth for a few days of really thick smoke? The other 360 days they grew just fine ( little growth in the winter though)
In 2004 we had a very wet summer, likely would see a growth spurt in trees.

Corneliousrooster wrote:hmm.... So all the interior mills, loggers, trucks they relocate for work until winter?Not much because they are not allowed do to the fire hazard would have been a better answer

Not sure how you think the logging industry works in the interior, but it is pretty evident to me and likely some here that you have really not got a good grasp on the harvesting seasons.
Loggers in the interior usually have a break in harvesting because of break-up ( frost coming out of the ground) and when conditions in the bush are considered to risky to work because of a fire starting.

Corneliousrooster wrote:Being that most of the province had to spend 1/2 the summer indoors the last few I would say that there is room for improvement

OK, let us know how you are going to control the weather, heat, rain cycles, heating of the southern Pacific ocean, El Nina or El ninio Pine beetles, spruce beetles etc.. Feel free to pass that onto the forest people around the world.
Perhaps you might be from the Trump school of forestry... I'll start buying shares in rake companies.
Look, talking is easy, I hope you might understand ALL the variables that go into the forest, I don't know all, but do have a decent grasp in what goes on and why.

Corneliousrooster wrote:yes - all good forests should be sprayed with water clay fertilizer and dye - totally justifies abolishing deciduous growth (however did the forests manage before humans intervened....???)

Guess your house has not been impacted by a forest, brush or grass fire.

Corneliousrooster wrote:This is not rocket science - no one is saying that all aspens everywhere need to flourish and grow to their maximum ability. Some intelligent panning as to where to allow they to grow to create a slow down fire barrier - decisions made and implemented today wouldn't even show results for decades. Lets drag our feet even more while facing yearly inferno's cause god forbid we actually handicap the timber harvest for the greater good of the timber harvest......carry on - whatever you are doing is clearly working wonders (not sure how far your head has to be buried to see those wonders at work but the rest of us are ready for someone with a brain to make a change of some sort (hopefully for the better!)


Aspen as mentioned grows in site specific zones. You saying man has to intervene and try to plant and have them grow where they might not grow best? What if where they are allowed to grow is just not feasible. I've seen an acre of Aspen growing in the middle of a stand of spruce and Pine. Not going to be any influence on a fire. Remember between the MT. Pine Beetle and forest fires, sawmills in the interior are shutting down from lack of suitable timber to harvest. Glad I'm not one of those forestry or mill workers displaced. We need to grow more timber suitable for processing, not less.
We have had two exceptionally bad years for wild fires. I feel for all those that have lost houses and property because of the fires. Being an " armchair" fire fighter" does not help. When wind whips up in dry dead timber, best to get out of its way. Man ain't going to stop it any time soon.

twobits wrote:And how has replant from helicopter dropped plugs of tree seedlings worked out? LOL.

Really dumb idea, must have been an old Trudeau( #1) era "LIP-GRANT
I remember seeing a picture of a converted M113 carrier converted into a mechanical tree planting machine. Think it was a UBC Forestry Prof. that thought that one up.
Best way with best survival rates is plant by hand...
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