BC Hydro buys from IPPs as per gov request

[butcher99]

Exactly Urbane. When there are storms like this winter, cold, windy, dark, you name it we need a strong firm base that can provide maximum power because none of the alternatives will be working and the grid demand will be high meaning we have to be able to look after ourselves. Just ask Australia and others what it's like when you put your dependence on wind and solar. Can anyone say blackouts and brown outs and they are always at the worst, most unwanted times. I can't believe that there are people out there that believe we should be allowing ourselves to get set up for these problems. I hope it is just a total lack of understanding of what is actually involved in running an electrical grid.

This shows just how poorly you are informed. Cold windy dark days are perfect for wind power. What more could you ask for for wind power than a windy day?
As I have pointed out many many times, we have quite a few batteries to hold the power when the wind does not blow. They are called hydro electric dams.

Yes, just ask Austrailia. In fact ask them what they are building. Large solar power producing fields at half the price that site C will cost. 5 of the eleven proposed fossil fuel plants in Australia have been cancelled. Zero of the 22 wind and solar projects have been cancelled. So, yes, lets ask Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... _Australia

[Urban Cowboy]

Look who's talking about poorly informed.

Here's a map link below, overlaying Australia and New Zealand onto North America, to give a perspective on latitude.

I don't know about you, but to me what instantly stands out, is that the whole of Australia is centered above Mexico, with it's uppermost parts encompassing the southernmost US states.

This tells me that once again, a solar panel pusher is comparing apples and oranges, trying to convince the clueless, that those panels would work just as well in our location, much further away from the equator, than any of your Australian panels will be.

Now run along and present us, with a successful example of massive fields of solar panels, but in similar, preferably same, latitude that we inhabit.

Oh and as I recall reading it, and hearing from people I know, who actually live in Australia, brownouts and high cost are a huge issue, despite their much more favorable solar panel location.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen ... _to_north/

[Smurf]

butcher99 wrote:

This shows just how poorly you are informed. Cold windy dark days are perfect for wind power. What more could you ask for for wind power than a windy day?
As I have pointed out many many times, we have quite a few batteries to hold the power when the wind does not blow. They are called hydro electric dams.

Yes, just ask Austrailia. In fact ask them what they are building. Large solar power producing fields at half the price that site C will cost. 5 of the eleven proposed fossil fuel plants in Australia have been cancelled. Zero of the 22 wind and solar projects have been cancelled. So, yes, lets ask Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... _Australia

Maybe you should also check. Wind turbines cannot work in winds as strong as they were having on much of the coast and island this summer, fall and winter. They would be sitting feathered and useless with owners wondering if they were going to be damaged.

You are right about how lucky we are to have our hydro dams to save us when useless wind and power are unable to produce. Also lucky we will have site C to help continue the good work till something reliable shows up. Wind and solar remind me of a few people I worked with that you had to follow and finish their job for them half the time. I can't say what we used to call them because it would just be removed.

[hobbyguy]

It's truly amazing how the same people who demand action re climate change simultaneously complain because they might have to pay a little more for clean energy. Go figure.

NDP hyper-partisans talk about those who did business with the Liberals as their "buddies" but of course any NDP business done re solar or wind wouldn't be with "buddies" of the NDP.

As to your question, I'd be saying exactly what I'm saying now. Too bad we didn't build Site C sooner. Gordon Campbell was more in favour of acquiring energy, e.g. through IPPs, and the Clark government was in favour of BC Hydro producing more of its own power, e.g. Site C. Some of you don't want IPPs or Site C. Again, go figure.

I don't mind at all paying a little more for green power. The BILLIONS the liberals signed up for with the Run of the Rivers project is not a little more.
I notice as usual you ignored my direct question to you. What would you say if it was the NDP that wasted billions on the Run of Rivers project?

Many folks can not afford the extra cost.

And they certainly can't afford the tripling of rates that wind and solar IPPs would bring.

[flamingfingers]

IPPs in BC:

Run-of-river projects
See main article: Run-of-the-river hydroelectricity

The dominant type of IPPs in British Columbia are run-of-the-river, or small hydro, projects. In 2016, there were 114 IPP projects of all types, annually generating 20,000 gigawatt hours of electricity from 4800 megawatts of capacity.[12] Some ecological concerns have been raised over rural areas that may have remained untouched by ranching, logging and mining, now being developed with roads and transmission lines.

Wind turbine projects
See main article: Wind turbine

[b]Four wind turbine projects were built between 2009 and 2014 in British Columbia and supply almost 2% of the provinces electricity[/b].[15] A prominent producer of this form of energy is Cape Scott Wind Farm, located in Port Hardy, British Columbia, which supplies 2 per cent of the province's overall energy supply.[16] Although a clean source of energy, issues have arisen over the inconsistency of the energy generated and overall appearance of the turbines. Since wind forces vary from time to time, the amount of electricity generated can be inconsistent and therefore unreliable. BC Hydro has shown little interest in this type of producer for this reason. Other critics worry that the aesthetic appearance may be unsightly and deter potential landowners.[17] Supporters of wind energy advocate for wind turbine construction on BC's north coast and Peace River regions, which have been shown to receive constant winds throughout the year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independe ... h_Columbia

Obviously wind power IPPs are a infinitesimal part of the $16 BILLION dollars in BC Hydro debt!

[butcher99]

Maybe you should also check. Wind turbines cannot work in winds as strong as they were having on much of the coast and island this summer, fall and winter. They would be sitting feathered and useless with owners wondering if they were going to be damaged.

You are right about how lucky we are to have our hydro dams to save us when useless wind and power are unable to produce. Also lucky we will have site C to help continue the good work till something reliable shows up. Wind and solar remind me of a few people I worked with that you had to follow and finish their job for them half the time. I can't say what we used to call them because it would just be removed.

There are areas of BC where the winds blow at useable speeds for over 90% of the time. The number of days or hours when the winds are too high is negligible. You are grasping at straws.

You brought up Australia and when it is pointed out that instead of backing away from wind and solar they are actually starting up more wind and especially solar and backing away from fossil fuel plants. Maybe, just maybe they know something you don't or something you are just unable or unwilling to comprehend.

That is, that wind and solar are here to stay. They continue to get cheaper and more efficient. Like all emerging technologies, time and research fix the problems. Come back in another 10 years and see where they are at. 44% efficiency now achievable with solar if not yet viable. Something even two years ago was a pipe dream.

Run of the rivers seemed like a good idea. I believe it was an NDP to start with. Then the Liberals got involved and screwed that up as well. 40 year contracts? Really? $200 per year average for every home owner just to pay for that mess. Yet you ignore that to go on and on about how wind power will not work when it is working around the world.

[Smurf]

Where have I ever ignored the run of the river projects. I have been against them ever since they started to talk about them and brought up most of the problems being talked about including ecological and environmental concerns. I was away ahead of the game. I am doing the same thing here. Yes the alternatives will become more common place but hopefully something probably nuclear will become actually useful in a meaningful way.

The reason the ROR IPP's went to guaranteed long term contracts was because they would not have been viable for the builders otherwise. That is exactly what is happening with wind and solar even with homeowners. They are becoming the IPP disaster of the future if we continue down that road. We have seen reports of no new projects and even car sales dropping if subsidies are dropped. How many $200.00 are you ready to have added to your bill for basically intermittent useless power.

Did you ever consider that it is not me but you that is not willing to look at the real current picture. I have worked in the electrical industry for decades and have reasonably good understanding of it from construction to production. Most of the alternatives are still not mainstream and we must be very careful we don't end up with a ton more disasters, like the ROR's because what we are doing today amounts to more even worse IPP's.

[butcher99]

Where have I ever ignored the run of the river projects. I have been against them ever since they started to talk about them and brought up most of the problems being talked about including ecological and environmental concerns. I was away ahead of the game. I am doing the same thing here. Yes the alternatives will become more common place but hopefully something probably nuclear will become actually useful in a meaningful way.

The reason the ROR IPP's went to guaranteed long term contracts was because they would not have been viable for the builders otherwise. That is exactly what is happening with wind and solar even with homeowners. They are becoming the IPP disaster of the future if we continue down that road. We have seen reports of no new projects and even car sales dropping if subsidies are dropped. How many $200.00 are you ready to have added to your bill for basically intermittent useless power.

Did you ever consider that it is not me but you that is not willing to look at the real current picture. I have worked in the electrical industry for decades and have reasonably good understanding of it from construction to production. Most of the alternatives are still not mainstream and we must be very careful we don't end up with a ton more disasters, like the ROR's because what we are doing today amounts to more even worse IPP's.

I don't believe I have ever said you were for or against the run of the rivers projects. What I have said however is that if it was the NDP that did that mess you would be on here day after day ranting and raving about the project not basically giving the Liberals a pass.

BC is actually in a very good position to take advantage of wind power. To date we have only 4 wind projects up and running. ( from a simple web search but feel free to correct me, it is not many) Unlike Ontario who bought in years ago, we have missed the high prices from the original installations Now, wind is comparable to new hydro installations if not cheaper. And the price is still dropping marginally. There are areas of BC where the wind is almost constant.
Yes, wind is never 100% constant. That is why you use wind when you have it and hydro as backup.
BC is very fortunate to have both, areas of almost constant wind, and massive hydro electric dams for backup.
If you are an electrical engineer, you know how easy it is to switch from one source to another. BCHydro has made millions every year by buying electricity when it is cheap and slowing down production from our hydro dams and then switching out and selling electricity when it is expensive.

Anyone saying wind and solar (solar of course not being a great choice in most of BC) is just ignorant about how low prices for wind and solar have gone. Not only that, they just do no want to bother even researching even a little on the actual current costs and benefits.
The US department of energys report last year stated that the cost of new wind power projects was less than 2 cents per KWH.
Of course you can always go back to 2012 when Forbes said that it was the end of wind power because subsidies were being cancelled. Instead of course wind power installation has just picked up and become cheaper and cheaper. From 11 cents in 2012 to 2 cents per kwh. now.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christophe ... 68475b4b28

[flamingfingers]

@michellemungall introduces new legislation after a review of BC Hydro. Reinstates independent BCUC with authority to review Hydro's longterm planning, defines rate classes in an effort to keep rates low, bans buying private power for purpose to sell on market at low rates, etc.

about time to cut these slimesuckers off that profited from Gordon Campbell's reward to his political supporters/donors who went on to destroy our many rivers and salmon breeding habitat to garner megabucks from forcing BC Hydro to buy expensive power even when they didn't supply it and at a time when BC Hydro had to spill water over their dams.

About time we had a Minister with some cojones.

[seewood]

about time to cut these slimesuckers off that profited from Gordon Campbell's reward to his political supporters/donors who went on to destroy our many rivers and salmon breeding habitat to garner megabucks from forcing BC Hydro to buy expensive power even when they didn't supply it and at a time when BC Hydro had to spill water over their dams.About time we had a Minister with some cojones.

A good thing. Now I hope her words also project to any windy solar projects. Let the private sector build them without subsidies and sell the power to BC Hydro at a rate the same as what hydro power is produced.(If Hydro actually needs it) If they want to connect to the grid, let them do so on their dime.

[butcher99]

about time to cut these slimesuckers off that profited from Gordon Campbell's reward to his political supporters/donors who went on to destroy our many rivers and salmon breeding habitat to garner megabucks from forcing BC Hydro to buy expensive power even when they didn't supply it and at a time when BC Hydro had to spill water over their dams.About time we had a Minister with some cojones.

A good thing. Now I hope her words also project to any windy solar projects. Let the private sector build them without subsidies and sell the power to BC Hydro at a rate the same as what hydro power is produced.(If Hydro actually needs it) If they want to connect to the grid, let them do so on their dime.

The private sector is building them without subsidies all over the world now. Try to keep up. WInd and solar are now some of the cheapest sources of NEW electric power. And as technology imroves, the cost is continuing to fall.

[hobbyguy]

Exactly Urbane. When there are storms like this winter, cold, windy, dark, you name it we need a strong firm base that can provide maximum power because none of the alternatives will be working and the grid demand will be high meaning we have to be able to look after ourselves. Just ask Australia and others what it's like when you put your dependence on wind and solar. Can anyone say blackouts and brown outs and they are always at the worst, most unwanted times. I can't believe that there are people out there that believe we should be allowing ourselves to get set up for these problems. I hope it is just a total lack of understanding of what is actually involved in running an electrical grid.

This shows just how poorly you are informed. Cold windy dark days are perfect for wind power. What more could you ask for for wind power than a windy day?
As I have pointed out many many times, we have quite a few batteries to hold the power when the wind does not blow. They are called hydro electric dams.

Yes, just ask Austrailia. In fact ask them what they are building. Large solar power producing fields at half the price that site C will cost. 5 of the eleven proposed fossil fuel plants in Australia have been cancelled. Zero of the 22 wind and solar projects have been cancelled. So, yes, lets ask Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... _Australia

Dumbest ideological farce ever. Wind and solar are a disaster.

Why would anyone want to triple or quadruple their their electricity rates??? https://stopthesethings.com/2017/12/02/guilty-subsidised-wind-solar-drive-australias-rocketing-retail-power-prices/

Ya, we know that the little green* book followers have a mental block because of their ideology. So they won't, because they chooses not to, realize that wind and solar are a disaster for a large variety of reasons.

There are only two viable non-fossil fuel sources of electrical service delivery, hydroelectric and safe nuclear.

Here comes, blah blah blah "wind power contractor bids low price" - never mind the subsidies, never mind that generation cost in the context of wind and solar is about 1/7 of the delivered price, whereas with hydroelectric and nuclear it is about 1/2 - that's just too complicated for the followers of the little green* book ideology.

ETA: Here is the cost of just one key aspect required for wind and solar, storage: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/01/02/utility-scale-solar-power-plus-lithium-ion-storage-cost-breakdown/

All that has to paid for! Plus a profit, plus ongoing operating and maintenance.

By the way, Australia is spending billions and billions and billions on pumped hydro to try to make a dent in the storage problem. But the are chasing their tails, as the storage problem gets worse with every solar or wind facility built. Plus state governments are spending billions on things like buying natural gas fired plants and paying to keep them open as back up to the failing solar wind model. Yup, tax money that could be paying for better health care or education going as hidden subsidies for wind and solar scammers.

[butcher99]

Dumbest ideological farce ever. Wind and solar are a disaster.

Why would anyone want to triple or quadruple their their electricity rates??? https://stopthesethings.com/2017/12/02/guilty-subsidised-wind-solar-drive-australias-rocketing-retail-power-prices/

Ya, we know that the little green* book followers have a mental block because of their ideology. So they won't, because they chooses not to, realize that wind and solar are a disaster for a large variety of reasons.

There are only two viable non-fossil fuel sources of electrical service delivery, hydroelectric and safe nuclear.

Here comes, blah blah blah "wind power contractor bids low price" - never mind the subsidies, never mind that generation cost in the context of wind and solar is about 1/7 of the delivered price, whereas with hydroelectric and nuclear it is about 1/2 - that's just too complicated for the followers of the little green* book ideology.

Thats it, just poke your head a little deeper in the sand. Take a look at the rates for NEW generation wind and solar.
Lets just look at power production in Australia. 6% give or take is from wind or solar yet that site says it is all the fault of renewable resources. Take the breakdown of all those countries and see where their power comes from. Mostly it is not solar wind.

[hobbyguy]

Dumbest ideological farce ever. Wind and solar are a disaster.

Why would anyone want to triple or quadruple their their electricity rates??? https://stopthesethings.com/2017/12/02/guilty-subsidised-wind-solar-drive-australias-rocketing-retail-power-prices/

Ya, we know that the little green* book followers have a mental block because of their ideology. So they won't, because they chooses not to, realize that wind and solar are a disaster for a large variety of reasons.

There are only two viable non-fossil fuel sources of electrical service delivery, hydroelectric and safe nuclear.

Here comes, blah blah blah "wind power contractor bids low price" - never mind the subsidies, never mind that generation cost in the context of wind and solar is about 1/7 of the delivered price, whereas with hydroelectric and nuclear it is about 1/2 - that's just too complicated for the followers of the little green* book ideology.

Thats it, just poke your head a little deeper in the sand. Take a look at the rates for NEW generation wind and solar.
Lets just look at power production in Australia. 6% give or take is from wind or solar yet that site says it is all the fault of renewable resources. Take the breakdown of all those countries and see where their power comes from. Mostly it is not solar wind.

See what I added to to that post. Electricity is no good at some distant solar site in the desert when you need it in Sydney, and you need it after sunset or before sunrise. You have to have a whole collection grid system etc. etc.

Try thinking it through instead of getting suckered by the little green* book propaganda!

[butcher99]

See what I added to to that post. Electricity is no good at some distant solar site in the desert when you need it in Sydney, and you need it after sunset or before sunrise. You have to have a whole collection grid system etc. etc.

Try thinking it through instead of getting suckered by the little green* book propaganda!

and hydro power is not good when it is stuck at some dam in Fort St John. Try THINKING. Of course you have to move it to where it is needed. How much did that new power line for site C cost? https://www.sitecproject.com/business-o ... substation
When new solar in Australia is a far less than the price of their current sources it only makes sense for them to go solar for 12-14 hours a day.