All things Horgan

[rustled]

Seems this is the sticking point:

Keith Baldrey
@keithbaldrey
·
Jan 30
As long as the BCTF insists on trying to “bargain” the K-12 education budget it is doomed to failure. The BC Nurses Union and HEU don’t try to bargain the health budget; the BGEU doesn’t bargain the Govt budget. They all sign contracts. Every. Single. Contract. Round. #bcpoli

Indeed.

Teachers in B.C. won the right to collective bargaining more than 30 years ago, but their union has little experience with successful contract talks, no matter which political party is in power. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... -friendly/

Although butcher99 wants us to "at least wait" to see what the current iteration of the BCNDP comes up with, this is already apparent:

While the relationship with the Liberal government that ruled B.C. from 2001-2017 was particularly toxic, dealings with the NDP have been little better.

“It is evident there is a disconnect between the parties that will not allow them to reach a collective agreement," mediator David Schaub concluded in his report tabled Nov. 1 after four months of trying to help guide the parties to a settlement. "This has been a consistent theme over many rounds of negotiations. Only one collective agreement since 1987 has been reached without the assistance of a third party or government intervention.”

In fact, many of the major obstacles in this round of contract talks with the teachers go back to the NDP government of the 1990s.

It was the NDP that, in 1994, moved to province-wide bargaining on items that involve costs: salaries, benefits, workload and class-size restrictions. Two years after that, it reduced the number of school districts to streamline local bargaining on other matters. The BCTF still nurtures a grudge over those changes and insists at the bargaining table on deferring to its locals.

Many of us recall the haphazard, problematic results of bargaining at the district level.

The NDP, since returning to power in 2017, has been working to reconcile the court-ordered restoration of class size and composition limits in today’s classrooms. It has added more than $1-billion to help implement the old contract language, but it has not been a smooth transition and the teachers’ union maintains it still isn’t enough.

In the current round of public-sector bargaining, the province has established a framework that provides wage increases of up to 2 per cent in each year of a three-year contract. So far, 82 of the 184 public-sector unions have signed new collective agreements under these terms. Every one of them has tapped into funding, called the service improvement allocation, that allows for targeted wage adjustments on top of the 2-2-2 formula.

But the teachers’ employer cannot go beyond that without triggering similar increases – known as the me-too clause – that would ripple across the public sector. A 1-per-cent wage increase beyond the mandate would amount to an additional $300-million in costs to the treasury, according to the Finance Ministry.

Here's what we don't need to "at least wait" to find out:

The BCTF has learned one thing in more than three decades of bargaining and that is to be relentless. The governing New Democrats, many of them with their roots in trade-union activism, are feeling the heat.

What's the BCTF up to?

The BCTF’s Bargaining Team is hard at work trying to get a good deal for members that includes meaningful salary gains and improvements to working conditions.

To get that deal, members need to read up on the state of talks and then get engaged in our collective advocacy work.

• Where does the employer stand on salary?
• Is there a way to get more than 2%, 2%, and 2%?
• What has the employer tabled on class size?
• Are the BCTF’s proposals available to members to read?

Make sure you read the bargaining bulletins to find out what the government wants to do with the collective agreement language we recently won back at the Supreme Court of Canada. https://www.bctf.ca/publications/Newsma ... x?id=53594

(My bold.)

We should all hope the current government continues to to stand their ground and do not find a convenient reason to capitulate.

IMO, there is no better time to set aside blind partisanship and focus on what is best for British Columbians in both the short and the long term.

The BCTF is working hard for the BCTF. That is no surprise. It is not up to the BCTF to figure out how to address the problems their demands will foist on the districts, the students, or the taxpayers. It is up to BCPSEA to ensure the agreement does not impede the districts' ability to provide what's actually necessary for the students. It is up to the provincial government to ensure the deal makes effective and efficient use of taxpayer resources.

The ineffective and hopelessly inefficient system of bargaining currently in place must be fixed.

We should all support Carole James and the current government in standing up for what is best for public education.

[hobbyguy]

Let me run and grab my violin in recognition of the poor hard done by teachers.

To observe some of the positions, from people who are always first in line to defend teachers, one would think they get peanuts for compensation, no benefits, and whipped when not performing up to snuff.

Evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise.

They had a contract. You may not agree with it and you can call it whatever you like but the entire cost of the lawsuit and the settlement falls 100% on liberal shoulders. They are the ones who thought they could just legislate it away. Turns out, a contract is a contract and you cannot just break it by legislation.

Actually, the initial court challenge, the appeal court, and the BC Supreme court ruled in favor of the Liberal government. The BCTF lunatics got lucky with the SCOC. The SCOC decision is still controversial.

It is quite apparent from that record of favorable decisions until it got all the way to the SCOC that the Liberals had a solid legal argument.

And yes, the BCTF are lunatics. WE do not elect them to run our school systems, but they think we should let them.

It is really funny to see Horgan dancing around the past NDP incompetence and fighting with the BCTF. The NDP created this problem, so they should wear it - and it looks good on them. Shows their true incompetence and inability to ask the "and then what" questions.

[butcher99]

Got lucky? Two out of 3 courts ruled in their favor. They ruled you cannot just legislate yourself out of a bad contract you signed. You being the employer or the BC government in this case.

[rustled]

Got lucky? Two out of 3 courts ruled in their favor. They ruled you cannot just legislate yourself out of a bad contract you signed. You being the employer or the BC government in this case.

What's particularly interesting here is your inability to acknowledge the government went behind the backs of the BCPSEA and legislated the contract in. The BCPSEA had very good reasons for not agreeing to what the government gave the BCTF.

When a contract has not been properly negotiated through legitimate channels, and the government of the day overstepped and legislated in a contract that proves unworkable, how would you suggest subsequent governments deal with that unworkable contract? If you believe it should be negotiated out, well, that's what the BC NDP are doing now by refusing to sign a negotiated contract with that language in it. They refuse to give up what was legislated in, so let's see how removing it through "negotiating, not legislating" plays out.

I caught the first bit of the CBC panel on the dispute this morning. The interviewer seemed completely unaware of what happened prior to 2002 or the 2+2+2 and "me too" pressures (great journalism there, bub), and the rep for the Liberals was awful (when asked if the teachers deserved a raise, she couldn't just say "they deserve the raise they've been offered" or something similar, just reverted to daft talking points intended to deflect. One wonders: who chose the Liberal rep? If it was the Liberals, Horgan is sitting pretty. Moe Sihota, speaking as the rep for the BC NDP, said students and parents are unlikely to be "inconvenienced" by strike action because the last thing the BCTF wants is for the Liberals to return to power. He better hope that's true.

What is in the BCTF's best interest here is not in the best interests of public education, or our students. Partisanship will cost us dearly on this. Anyone who truly believes in public education should be willing to set aside partisan sniping and support Horgan and James in negotiating a contract that does NOT include language that has already proven unworkable.

[Pete Podoski]

Let's all hope that workers win the right to choose whom to affiliate with, and Horgan is forced to stop lining the pockets of his special friends at his special unions.


Contractors, unions in court against B.C.’s union-only construction

Independent contractors and unions left out of the B.C. government’s exclusive construction deal with the B.C. and Yukon Building Trades began a four-day hearing in B.C. Supreme Court Monday to challenge the deal.

The lawsuit challenges the NDP government’s requirement that project workers have to join one of 19 designated building trades unions to work on major projects, so far including Highway 1 widening work east of Kamloops, replacement of the Pattullo bridge from New Westminster to Surrey and the Broadway subway line in Vancouver.

“Forced unionization of this sort is an affront to one of the core values of the labour movement, a worker’s freedom to choose,” said Ken Baerg, director of labour relations for the Abbotsford-based Canada West Construction Union. “It’s a government that claims to be in touch with the working class that is denying workers this fundamental right.”

https://www.abbynews.com/business/contr ... nstruction

[butcher99]

Got lucky? Two out of 3 courts ruled in their favor. They ruled you cannot just legislate yourself out of a bad contract you signed. You being the employer or the BC government in this case.

What's particularly interesting here is your inability to acknowledge the government went behind the backs of the BCPSEA and legislated the contract in. The BCPSEA had very good reasons for not agreeing to what the government gave the BCTF.

When a contract has not been properly negotiated through legitimate channels, and the government of the day overstepped and legislated in a contract that proves unworkable, how would you suggest subsequent governments deal with that unworkable contract? If you believe it should be negotiated out, well, that's what the BC NDP are doing now by refusing to sign a negotiated contract with that language in it. They refuse to give up what was legislated in, so let's see how removing it through "negotiating, not legislating" plays out.

I caught the first bit of the CBC panel on the dispute this morning. The interviewer seemed completely unaware of what happened prior to 2002 or the 2+2+2 and "me too" pressures (great journalism there, bub), and the rep for the Liberals was awful (when asked if the teachers deserved a raise, she couldn't just say "they deserve the raise they've been offered" or something similar, just reverted to daft talking points intended to deflect. One wonders: who chose the Liberal rep? If it was the Liberals, Horgan is sitting pretty. Moe Sihota, speaking as the rep for the BC NDP, said students and parents are unlikely to be "inconvenienced" by strike action because the last thing the BCTF wants is for the Liberals to return to power. He better hope that's true.

What is in the BCTF's best interest here is not in the best interests of public education, or our students. Partisanship will cost us dearly on this. Anyone who truly believes in public education should be willing to set aside partisan sniping and support Horgan and James in negotiating a contract that does NOT include language that has already proven unworkable.

No what is amazing here is the undeniable fact that you refuse to acknowledge the hundreds of millions wasted over the years by attempting to throw out a legally negotiated contract.
They could have gone to the bargaining table and attempted to do it there. They could have even imposed a settlement after negotiations failed. Instead they went all high and mighty and blew millions and wasted time in court.

[rustled]

What's particularly interesting here is your inability to acknowledge the government went behind the backs of the BCPSEA and legislated the contract in. The BCPSEA had very good reasons for not agreeing to what the government gave the BCTF.

When a contract has not been properly negotiated through legitimate channels, and the government of the day overstepped and legislated in a contract that proves unworkable, how would you suggest subsequent governments deal with that unworkable contract? If you believe it should be negotiated out, well, that's what the BC NDP are doing now by refusing to sign a negotiated contract with that language in it. They refuse to give up what was legislated in, so let's see how removing it through "negotiating, not legislating" plays out.

I caught the first bit of the CBC panel on the dispute this morning. The interviewer seemed completely unaware of what happened prior to 2002 or the 2+2+2 and "me too" pressures (great journalism there, bub), and the rep for the Liberals was awful (when asked if the teachers deserved a raise, she couldn't just say "they deserve the raise they've been offered" or something similar, just reverted to daft talking points intended to deflect. One wonders: who chose the Liberal rep? If it was the Liberals, Horgan is sitting pretty. Moe Sihota, speaking as the rep for the BC NDP, said students and parents are unlikely to be "inconvenienced" by strike action because the last thing the BCTF wants is for the Liberals to return to power. He better hope that's true.

What is in the BCTF's best interest here is not in the best interests of public education, or our students. Partisanship will cost us dearly on this. Anyone who truly believes in public education should be willing to set aside partisan sniping and support Horgan and James in negotiating a contract that does NOT include language that has already proven unworkable.

No what is amazing here is the undeniable fact that you refuse to acknowledge the hundreds of millions wasted over the years by attempting to throw out a legally negotiated contract.

Your certainty here interests me. I have previously acknowledged the waste. The contract was not negotiated by BCPSEA, but imposed upon them, so I find your the wording in your "undeniable fact" pretty misleading. I'm curious as to whether you are able to acknowledge the significance of the problems the language in that contract caused for public education in British Columbia before it was removed and after it was reinstated.

They could have gone to the bargaining table and attempted to do it there. They could have even imposed a settlement after negotiations failed. Instead they went all high and mighty and blew millions and wasted time in court.

The BC NDP are overseeing the BCPSEA's attempt to do that now. Horgan's government would of course prefer a negotiated contract, as would any government, but so far the BCTF seems determined to reject any contract that does NOT include the language previously imposed on BCPSEA, the language the BCTF then fought so hard for in court. I'll acknowledge again that huge waste of money, and reiterate that I, too, wish the Liberals had found a different solution.

If the BCPSEA and the BCTF cannot come to terms, the "imposed settlement" solution you're suggesting is unlikely to include that language, since Carole James knows full well why that language was unworkable, and so far Horgan and the BC NDP seem to realize the language is unworkable, too. (IMO we should all hope the contract, whether it's negotiated or imposed, does not. I'm curious: can you agree to that?)

So we may yet see an imposed settlement from Horgan's government, without the language. If that happens, we shall see if what you are proposing actually works the way you think it would, or if the imposed settlement is simply the beginning of another round of contentious and costly legal wrangling as the BCTF works hard to get that unworkable language back into the contract.

[Gone_Fishin]

The verdict is in: John, you suuu-uuu-uuuuuuuck.


After 2.5 years in power, how do you feel the NDP is governing?

Total Votes: 3617
They are doing great 11.17%
No government is perfect 11.67%
Middle of the road 19.41%
Poorly 27.98%
Dismal 29.78%


https://www.castanet.net/news/Poll/2768 ... -governing

[flamingfingers]

^^^^In RedNeckanagan??? that's no surprise!!!

[southy]

^^^^In RedNeckanagan??? that's no surprise

Wrong Flamy! The only rednecks I've seen in the Okanagan are those individuals who forgot to put sunscreen on. Mostly those vacationing from the coast and island

[butcher99]

The verdict is in: John, you suuu-uuu-uuuuuuuck.


After 2.5 years in power, how do you feel the NDP is governing?

Total Votes: 3617
They are doing great 11.17%
No government is perfect 11.67%
Middle of the road 19.41%
Poorly 27.98%
Dismal 29.78%


https://www.castanet.net/news/Poll/2768 ... -governing

Yet outside the Okanagan things take a different shape don't they. From a poll taken early Feb

BC NDP tops voter polling as provincial election rumours percolate

https://biv.com/article/2020/02/bc-ndp- ... -percolate

[Fraudfinders]

With respect to John Horgan's comment about the indigenous "Horgan says he supports the right to protest, but not those who attempt to disrupt and drown out the views of others."

Dear John,

Are you totally unaware of the butchery, terrorist style behaviour the indigenous and the public have had to endure at the hands of government thugs? Who issued the 'shoot to kill' order at the pipeline protests, was that you?

And this was JUST after your government signed an agreement to give them their lands back. Would you say that is backstabbing? bad faith negotiations?

Everyday, ordinary people have to deal with government agents pushing their agendas and non-accountability for missing monies, passing policies that strip us of our rights, reducing our ability to earn a good living or keep our homes... increase taxes to keep us in debt slavery.

All the while you steal our properties, our children, clean out our bank accounts, steal our automobiles, torture us in your jails and throw us in jail without warrants, on fake court orders issued in fake names, never producing any injured party or real party of interest who has been injured...you have the nerve to say disrupt and drown out the views of others?

You think we sympathize with you? While you put your stuff in blind trusts so when you break the law, you don't loose anything. You get to keep the cushy pension, the benefits, the house and your transportation....and your freedom.

Your courts disrespect us and laugh at us when you throw legal melarchy and babble-on language that is actually sign language to strip us of any remaining dignity, life force and savings.

Get your head out of your "axx" and your hands out of our pockets.

[butcher99]

With respect to John Horgan's comment about the indigenous "Horgan says he supports the right to protest, but not those who attempt to disrupt and drown out the views of others."

Dear John,

Are you totally unaware of the butchery, terrorist style behaviour the indigenous and the public have had to endure at the hands of government thugs? Who issued the 'shoot to kill' order at the pipeline protests, was that you?

And this was JUST after your government signed an agreement to give them their lands back. Would you say that is backstabbing? bad faith negotiations?

Everyday, ordinary people have to deal with government agents pushing their agendas and non-accountability for missing monies, passing policies that strip us of our rights, reducing our ability to earn a good living or keep our homes... increase taxes to keep us in debt slavery.

All the while you steal our properties, our children, clean out our bank accounts, steal our automobiles, torture us in your jails and throw us in jail without warrants, on fake court orders issued in fake names, never producing any injured party or real party of interest who has been injured...you have the nerve to say disrupt and drown out the views of others?

You think we sympathize with you? While you put your stuff in blind trusts so when you break the law, you don't loose anything. You get to keep the cushy pension, the benefits, the house and your transportation....and your freedom.

Your courts disrespect us and laugh at us when you throw legal melarchy and babble-on language that is actually sign language to strip us of any remaining dignity, life force and savings.

Get your head out of your "axx" and your hands out of our pockets.

You want sympathy with your plight? Quit blocking people in areas that have nothing to do with your plight! Courtenay for instance. A place where you had some support. You can kiss that goodbye. The people who have to miss work because of the train blockades. You can kiss any support from them as well.
Take your fight to the courts. Get your hereditary chiefs to run in an election and become elected and hereditary chiefs. Right now you have a fight on 3 sides. You have the government, your own people and the people you pi$$ed off by stopping them going to work.

[Merry]

The verdict is in: John, you suuu-uuu-uuuuuuuck.


After 2.5 years in power, how do you feel the NDP is governing?

Total Votes: 3617
They are doing great 11.17%
No government is perfect 11.67%
Middle of the road 19.41%
Poorly 27.98%
Dismal 29.78%


https://www.castanet.net/news/Poll/2768 ... -governing

As someone who "held my nose" and voted Liberal in the last election, I've been pleasantly surprised to see how moderately the NDP have governed since taking Office.

Despite not agreeing with absolutely every single thing they've done, I do think that, on balance, they've done a much better job than many expected them to do. And I can't say I miss all the Liberal corruption we'd become so used to hearing about.

The fact is that the Liberals were in office for such a long time they'd become arrogant, and unwilling to listen to anyone but themselves on many contentious issues. And it really was time for a change. Time to give them the opportunity to realize that Governments are there to serve the people, ALL the people, not just those who financially support their particular Party during an election.

The Liberals relied on fearmongering about the NDP to keep them in Office, and it worked like a charm for a very long time. Even allowing them to get away with some very questionable behaviour. But the NDP's actions since taking Office has made many realize that the Liberal "fearmongering" was overblown.

Hopefully the next election will be run on Policy differences, as opposed to simply trying to scare people into not voting for the opposing Party.

[Merry]

With respect to John Horgan's comment about the indigenous "Horgan says he supports the right to protest, but not those who attempt to disrupt and drown out the views of others."

Horgan's comment was bang on. People DO have, and SHOULD have the right to protest Government actions they disagree with. BUT they DO NOT, and SHOULD NOT, have the right to break the law and inconvenience the rest of the population, in order to make their point.

The fact is that the current protests are disrupting the lives of Canadians who far outnumber those doing the protesting. So is it right to allow a minority of people to use such heavy handed (and illegal) tactics to get the majority to bend to the will of a special interest group?

I would argue that it is NOT right.

The fight over the natural gas pipeline is an internal power struggle between First Nations people who believe in a more democratic form of Governance, and First Nations people who believe in a more traditional form of Governance. And many non First Nations groups are jumping into the fray to push their own agenda, rather than the agenda of the First Nations group they claim to be supporting.

When one takes a good look at many on the protest lines, one will notice that the numbers are small relevant to the total population of Canada. And also that, in many cases, non First Nations protesters outnumber First Nations protesters.

Even the media is compliant in pushing this protest as being a First Nations versus BC Government issue, in that the headline usually states it that way, and the fact that many First Nations people disagree with that point of view is buried somewhere much lower down in the article.

My First Nations relatives assure me that this is really an internal First Nations issue more than an environmental one. And that the predominantly white, environmental groups who are trying to use this internal fight to promote their own agendas, should simply back off and let the First Nations people themselves sort it out.