Condo Charging Conundrum

Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby KenL » Jul 15th, 2019, 7:30 am

Did you know there is auto manufacturing in over fifty countries worldwide? In fact, over eighty-million new cars are produced every year. Over a billion cars are in service around the world right now.

In the past forty years, cars have become one-hundred times cleaner in terms of exhaust emissions. That’s why the major smog days of the nineteen-seventies in places like Los Angeles and New York have all but gone, even though the car-count has increased exponentially.

Sadly, some countries like China and India have a lot of catching up to do, but they're doing better on auto emissions.

There is a big move afoot to replace petroleum powered cars with electric. Nice idea, and totally non-polluting, at least in principle. Battery charging facilities are few and expensive to develop. The enormous amount of electricity required to recharge millions of cars does not currently exist.

It takes a lot of energy to mine, refine and transport the preferred fuel for electric cars…Lithium. Lithium is a rare earth metal and is not found widely in economically viable quantities, so it’s expensive.

Additionally, once the Lithium in a battery is depleted it cannot be recycled. On average about every seven years an electric car will require a new battery pack. The non-recyclable Lithium can be considered toxic. It may need to be stored in safety zones, similar to depleted uranium fuel rods.

Well, that’s a downer, but there’s more. A typical petroleum powered car can be nearly 100 percent recycled after its useful life. A high percentage of most cars made today include a lot of petroleum based plastic as well as various metals. Almost all reusable.

The outlier is Lithium. Truly not recyclable. At today’s prices that battery pack will cost fifteen-thousand dollars or more to replace.

While the battery pack weighs around twelve-hundred pounds, the non-recyclable Lithium inside weighs about four-hundred pounds. That’s about ten percent of the car’s weight, and it's trash.

Now it goes from bad to worse. According to USGS surveys, both land and satellite based, there isn’t all that much Lithium to go around. In fact, if all car production starting tomorrow switched to electric (as some wish it could) the known reserves of Lithium could only support global car production for two and a half years. There would also be no material to replace the battery packages on existing electric cars.

There may still be ways of finding safe, re-usable energy that haven’t been invented. I hope so. Maybe we shouldn’t be too quick to forsake the naturally forming and virtually infinite supply of fossil fuels.

The lack of a long-term supply suggests reliance on Lithium will quickly become a doomed effort. Tesla, for example, continues to rack up unsustainable losses of over a billion dollars a year.

An active, empowered petroleum industry can support many high-paying jobs, and both the product and the expertise can be exported at good profits. It will provide infrastructure income for all levels of government, and would require additional immigrant labour to fill the burgeoning employment opportunities.


Ken L in Kelowna

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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby TylerM4 » Jul 15th, 2019, 8:04 am

Your post seems to have little in common with the article/subject. If I can sum it up for you - you don't believe electric cars are a good idea because the batteries use lithium which is in short supply and you believe lithium batteries cannot be recycled.

You may want to revisit your position. Lithium batteries are absolutely recyclable. The typical recovery rate isn't great tho at ~50%.

However, like any new technology it's evolving fast - processes exist that recover 80% of the lithium. It's new and costly - will take a few years for recyclers to switch over.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/ ... o-over-80/

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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby mexi cali » Jul 15th, 2019, 8:08 am

Yah but don't try to impress the "facts" on the whiners mentioned in Cnets article today. Wanting this to happen;

"Groups such as the Vancouver EV Association have written to Selina Robinson, minister of municipal affairs and housing, asking for right-to-charge legislation, similar to what is in place in Ontario and other jurisdictions."

No consideration toward the strata's who may not have the funds to support these hugely expensive charging stations. Not that they care. It's all about " well, I have an electric car and I demand that you accommodate me." No consideration given to the onerous task of having a volunteer group mapping out the infrastructure to take on projects such as this and absolute no consideration given to the realities of the availability and sustainability of Lithium mining and production.

There have been so many red flags raised in the past several years about E vehicles yet the Birkenstock wearing, Kale eating, man bun wearing lovers of what they perceive to be "all things green" pay no attention to anything that might get in the way of being able to drive their Prius to the folk festival on Sundays.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby Sparki55 » Jul 15th, 2019, 8:13 am

TylerM4 wrote:Your post seems to have little in common with the article/subject. If I can sum it up for you - you don't believe electric cars are a good idea because the batteries use lithium which is in short supply and you believe lithium batteries cannot be recycled.

You may want to revisit your position. Lithium batteries are absolutely recyclable. The typical recovery rate isn't great tho at ~50%.

However, like any new technology it's evolving fast - processes exist that recover 80% of the lithium. It's new and costly - will take a few years for recyclers to switch over.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/03/25/ ... o-over-80/


Okay, so is there enough lithium to support 1 billion electric cars? The OP stated that the world only has 2.5 years worth of lithium left, or 160 million cars? Would that not mean that no matter how well we recycle that we still do not have a good solution?
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby Sparki55 » Jul 15th, 2019, 8:16 am

mexi cali wrote:No consideration toward the strata's who may not have the funds to support these hugely expensive charging stations. Not that they care. It's all about " well, I have an electric car and I demand that you accommodate me." No consideration given to the onerous task of having a volunteer group mapping out the infrastructure to take on projects such as this and absolute no consideration given to the realities of the availability and sustainability of Lithium mining and production.


Yup! Anyone who wants to charge their vehicle with anything over 110V should have to pay to have the station installed. If I want to add instant hot water to my unit I have to pay to upgrade the power coming to my suite, should the same not apply here?

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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby mexi cali » Jul 15th, 2019, 8:46 am

Abso freakin lootly
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby tabanner » Jul 15th, 2019, 9:57 am

KenL,

Your post has many errors in it. I will only address what I know for fact about Tesla EVs.

First, Tesla has been recycling their batteries since 2012.

The first Model S vehicles were 7 years old in June. Studies have shown it will take about 500,000 miles for the battery to be worn down to 80%. I know of one particular Model S in Kelowna that has 280,000 km on it with 10% battery degradation. That is pretty darn good.

Thirdly, for the Model 3s (of which about 100 are being delivered a day right now in Vancouver), they come with a 70% degradation warranty on the vehicle's battery within 8 years or 100-120,000 miles depending on battery.

For the most part however, most owners are seeing degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 mile according to most recent data. Keep in mind, the new Model S gets 600 km of range for the long range models. The latest data also clearly shows that for the first 100,000 km, most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity but after the 100,000 km mark, the capacity levels off and it seems to be hard to make a battery pack degrade by another 5%. This currently suggest that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km before coming close to 90% capacity.

I have no problem with those who dislike EVs for whatever reasons, but to state untruths as facts is very misleading. Just like those who say if everyone on a city block suddenly had an EV, there wouldn't be enough power for the entire block and we'd have power outages. Yet everyone dries their clothes in their dryers with no issues. lol
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby JagXKR » Jul 15th, 2019, 10:04 am

tabanner wrote:KenL,

Your post has many errors in it.


I have no problem with those who dislike EVs for whatever reasons, but to state untruths as facts is very misleading.


So many of your points are untrue and misleading. This is why the golf cart industry is not taking off like a rocket. Utter bunk about the "claims".
I found a very similar sounding propaganda sales pitch from a golf cart salesman once. Turned me off right away when I heard the gross exaggerations and outright lies.
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby tabanner » Jul 15th, 2019, 10:08 am

JagXKR wrote:
tabanner wrote:KenL,

Your post has many errors in it.


I have no problem with those who dislike EVs for whatever reasons, but to state untruths as facts is very misleading.


So many of your points are untrue and misleading. This is why the golf cart industry is not taking off like a rocket. Utter bunk about the "claims".
I found a very similar sounding propaganda sales pitch from a golf cart salesman once. Turned me off right away when I heard the gross exaggerations and outright lies.



You are comparing golf carts to Teslas? [icon_lol2.gif]

My points are not untrue or misleading. Just do some research.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby JagXKR » Jul 15th, 2019, 10:25 am

As you have done in other threads, the gross exaggerations of the Tesla claims are just that. You have made these claims before and the most misleading one is the 600km range. This claim is utter bunk. It is not real world. It was done on a controlled track under ideal weather conditions. Completely unreal world.
But you are right, I should not call them golf carts. Souped-up golf carts for the rich eco terrorist is more apropos.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby Sparki55 » Jul 15th, 2019, 10:57 am

tabanner wrote:My points are not untrue or misleading. Just do some research.


All the research that I require:

https://www.caa.ca/electric-vehicles/faq-electric-vehicles/
The primary effect of cold weather on electric cars is a reduction in their range: one vehicle that was tested dropped from a range of 155 km on a warm day to just over 100 km average in the winter, and approximately 75 km in extreme cold weather (-25C).

While range is affected by road conditions, weather conditions and driving habits, most electric vehicle models have a rated range between 200-250 km on a full charge with many models capable of 400+ km of driving on a single charge.

Electric vehicle batteries are covered by 8-year manufacturer warranties, but the batteries will likely last much longer. At the end of your car’s life, the batteries still have value and a number of trials are being run that turn used electric vehicle batteries into energy storage units.


https://emotorwerks.com/news/blog/512-electric-car-battery-life
Many Tesla owners have reported over 160,000 miles on their original batteries without problems, and similar reports have come from customers of BMW electric cars. More specifically, the Tesla owner survey included 350 EV drivers, which experienced a 5% reduction in total battery capacity after 50,000 miles, but maintained more capacity after that and are expected to still have 90% capacity after around 185,000 miles, and 80 percent capacity after 500,000 miles. According to United States Department of Transportation Federal Highway Administration, the average American driver logs 13,476 miles per year, which means if you’re like most drivers, you could have your Tesla batteries for over 20 years.


Still doesn't answer to issue of whether or not there is enough lithium to support 1 billion cars.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby alanjh595 » Jul 15th, 2019, 2:08 pm

The first Model S vehicles were 7 years old in June. Studies have shown it will take about 500,000 miles for the battery to be worn down to 80%. I know of one particular Model S in Kelowna that has 280,000 km on it with 10% battery degradation.


Your milage and battery life expectancy may vary dramatically depending upon.
Weather
Area of use.
Driving conditions.
Terrain

How much you use the heater/A/C.
Wipers
and tire pressure.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby tabanner » Jul 15th, 2019, 3:08 pm

JagXKR wrote:As you have done in other threads, the gross exaggerations of the Tesla claims are just that. You have made these claims before and the most misleading one is the 600km range. This claim is utter bunk. It is not real world. It was done on a controlled track under ideal weather conditions. Completely unreal world.
But you are right, I should not call them golf carts. Souped-up golf carts for the rich eco terrorist is more apropos.



I'm not sure which other threads you are referring to, but I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can not lie about fuel/energy consumption. [icon_lol2.gif] You think if Tesla was making "gross exaggerations", they'd be selling as many cars as they are??

I can also tell you from my own "real world" experience, weather, driving conditions, area of use, terrain, interior temperature, etc., is not affected nearly as much as some NON Tesla owners might claim. And having such high range...it really is irrelevant for day to day driving. Battery expectancy for Teslas also isn't affected due to these elements as another poster stated. Using your a/c for example, year round, is not going to lower battery expectancy. Driving up and down hills everyday isn't going to lower battery expectancy.
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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby t76turbo » Jul 16th, 2019, 9:52 am

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Re: Condo Charging Conundrum

Postby OKkayak » Jul 16th, 2019, 12:27 pm

tabanner wrote:I'm not sure which other threads you are referring to, but I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can not lie about fuel/energy consumption. [icon_lol2.gif] You think if Tesla was making "gross exaggerations", they'd be selling as many cars as they are?

Car manufactures MPG ratings are done under controlled environments under specific parameters which differ greatly than real world usage, this is common knowledge.

People aren't buying Tesla's products because of some promised range, they're buying it because it suits their lifestyles.
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