Castanet

Hurtlander wrote:

jimmy4321 wrote:Growing up with private insurance , friends & family with private insurance , my father caught up in a couple accidents this is the first i've heard of such a thing.

I’m not talking about singing vehicle accidents, I’m talking about when two vehicles collide at an intersection or some similar situation and each vehicle has a different insurance provider.. it can often take a long time to sort out who’s responsible and who’s insurance provider is going to pay... ICBC simply fixes the damaged vehicles immediately, accuses both parties as being at fault, raising both parties premiums.

That's what i'm talking about my father didn't hit a fire hydrant or a tree, they were two parties involved, either way none of which you've mentioned I've experience hearing of from friends , family , gossip stories etc when living in provinces with private insurance.

To clarify I have zero experience in BC when private insurance existed.

With ICBC it all comes from the same pot, when who's right or wrong is questionable sometimes it comes down to who fights harder.

jimmy4321 wrote:I've experienced private insurance in the last 1-8 yrs in 4 cities and 3 provinces and ALL worked to my advantage in a big way on a work vehicle & personal - Also had private insurance at 16yrs old.
I have relatives in those provinces that laugh their *bleep* off at how ridiculous BC has become. My record is spotless except for a deer accident close to 20 yrs ago but no tickets etc.
. I pay near $1800(maybe bit more) with full discount where elsewhere with same coverage cost me $955. I showed my year old policy from Ontario to the ICBC rep cause I wanted the same coverage and to be a dick I guess since they were bragging about these new changes.
ICBC

You, like many, continually ignore the main element. You don't mention the tort law structure in those provinces.

Would you state "My <relative/friend/?> paid way less for his house in Vancouver, than I did for my home in Vernon. I don't know why people keep saying prices are higher in Vancouver ?" (Question) "Oh is the house in Vancouver on similar property and similar age and size ?" "Well no, the one Vernon is a 20 acre estate on lake frontage and is 15,000 square feet with a pool, tennis court and an 8 car garage, and it also has caretaker quarters. The one in Vancouver is 75 years old on a 33 foot lot, but other than that...." You have to compare apples to apples.

" I have relatives in those provinces that laugh their *bleep* off at how ridiculous BC has become"

You've actually got this backwards. BC hasn't changed it's tort laws, it has the same structure it always had, because of the Liberal government that ignored the problem. The jurisdictions your relatives are "laughing there *bleep* off" from, if you check, you will find that their government implemented a form of No Fault Liability auto insurance. That's the difference. BC hasn't become anything, the other province have changed.

The most crucial part of solving a problem is knowing the problem.

In this case the problem is lawyers that have raped ICBC with frivolous minor law suits over minimal collisions. In other provinces that problem was solved by implementing tort reform.

The solution is to reform our tort law, the solution is not competition.

I showed my year old policy from Ontario to the ICBC rep cause I wanted the same coverage and to be a dick I guess since they were bragging about these new changes.

Your a little ahead of yourself on the new changes, they haven't been implemented yet.

You can buy the exact coverage for some of your auto insurance BC to ON, but the basics, not so. Here's your "same coverage"

.
ONTARIO: Medical/Rehab : - Up to $3500 for minor injury, up to $65,000 for non-minor
Right to sue : Yes, if injury meets severity test (death, permanent and serious disfigurement or impairment of important physical mental or psychological function) and subject to a deductible of $36,905

BC: Medical/Rehab :- Up to$150,000 per person
Right to sue : Yes, no restrictions

As an aside, I thought about the USA. The bastion of competition and private insurance of all kinds. With US citizen's right to CHOOSE his/her health insurance company, and all the health insurance companies all in COMPETITION (not to mention all the private for profit hospitals in competition). What do we hear all the time about their private coverage. Many private insurance companies don't allow their insureds to choose which doctor they can go to or which hospital they can be treated at. Just an observation.

I didn't say they were implemented nor did she (ICBC) she was bragging about changes to come, because I was bitching about my rate.

Anyway you don't like ICBC make noise, call you rep or whoever you want running the show in victoria make it an issue.

jimmy4321 wrote:I didn't say they were implemented nor did she (ICBC) she was bragging about changes to come, because I was bitching about my rate.

my5cents where in ICBC do you work? I think it's only fair to see where you're coming from. I won't ask again, it's your right to keep that to yourself . I think you may have mentioned it before?

I'm a consumer i'm in no way affiliated with ICBC, not a politician, lawyer or in anyway a paid digital influencer Lol

I don't work anywhere. I'm retired.

As for having a horse in this "race", I expect, even if private insurance took over in BC, I wouldn't be negatively affected because I'm in the group that private insurance profits from. (low usage, low risk travel, old enough to have gained experience and still young enough not to be geriatricly impaired).

I don't blame you for bitching about your rates. I'm sure the only horse you have in the race is that you are a consumer of auto insurance coverage and you are frustrated. Only thing is you are blaming the wrong entity and are looking to the wrong solution to the problem.

To illustrate that competition wouldn't solve the high cost of mandatory coverage, let's look at the optional coverage in BC that is open to competition. If private insurance would be so efficient that under the same existing rules could drastically cut insurance premiums, how does the private optional rates compare to ICBC's ? Generally very close.

In fact if private insurance was allowed to compete for all auto insurance, and they used the same tactics they do in other provinces, the losses experienced in the mandatory third party liability coverage would be supplemented by the profits earned from the optional. Thus we would see and increase in our optional coverage premiums.

I just happen to think that something that is mandatory (auto insurance) shouldn't be subject to the profit motivated whims of private insurance companies.

The complaint that the mandatory auto insurance rates in BC are too high, is valid. The problem is the misconceptions.

1) The rates are high, because of mismanagement by ICBC.
2) The problem of high rates could be solved with privatization or full competition of the mandatory coverage.

It's human nature to express anger or frustration towards the person who directly interacts with us in a negative experience.

For example, the road is blocked because of construction, you are late for an appointment, you might express your frustration towards the flag person directing you to take the detour.

The cost of fuel for your car has gone up once again right before a long weekend, you express your frustration to the clerk (I guess now, for most of us all we can do is swear at the gas pump).

The flag person, the gas station clerk, have absolutely nothing to do with the source of your frustration.

Why are insurance rates high ? Well it must be mismanagement. Who "manages" ICBC ? ICBC management. No, ICBC is directed by the provincial government. The "Master" is the government, not ICBC.

So why do we express our displeasure with the high insurance rates to ICBC ? They are like the flag person or the gas station clerk.

But what is the problem, why are the rates high ? They are high because of bodily injury payments and corresponding legal fees for an extremely high number of law suits stemming from minor frivolous claims are out of control.

What solutions are available ? Change the rules regarding minor frivolous claims, ie tort reform.

Why has this gone on so long ? The government failed to act.

Did they know about it ? Yes, they commissioned a report in 2014, in which they were told.

What did the government do about the information in the report ? They deleted that portion of the report before releasing the report.

So the cause of the high premiums is minor injury claims and legal fees, allowed by the BC legal system. All the competition in the world isn't going to change the court settlements.

Who is to blame ? The Liberal government.

Solutions :

-> For minor injuries create a fair "care-based" model verses a "litigation-based lump-sum model".
-> Create legislation that prevents future governments from subverting the not for profit model of ICBC.

My bet if the government follows through with their plans and ICBC is allowed to be run as not for profit government insurance plan. In a few years your relatives will be wishing they had our rates.

It's not as simple as it appears, we need to change driving behaviour get police out doing their job, taking serious corrective action against risky drivers etc etc.

[quote In this case the problem is lawyers that have raped ICBC with frivolous minor law suits over minimal collisions. In other provinces that problem was solved by implementing tort reform. ][/quote]

Its not the lawyers. Its the varies governments who raped ICBC by transferring billion of dollars into general revenue.

casey60 wrote:Its not the lawyers. Its the varies governments who raped ICBC by transferring billion of dollars into general revenue.

I'm assuming you meant the "various governments". The only government that took over a billion ($1.4 billion, not "billions") was the Liberal government.

Yes this is a common misconception. Wrong on two fronts.

One, that amount of money, although large wouldn't have been enough over the span of years for which it was taken to be responsible for the deficit at ICBC.

But, the main reason that it couldn't be responsible is that the high rates are confined to the MANDATORY coverage area of ICBC insurance. By law, ICBC can't supplement any losses to the mandatory insurance from the OPTIONAL coverage area.

All the "dividends" looted by the Liberals came from profits from the optional coverage. Ironically the cost of optional coverage was still competitive with private insurance.

.
Be very careful about what you wish for, because once you lose what you have you likely won’t ever get it back.

I for one will not shed a tear if ICBC monopoly is gone. They are inefficient. Charge an extremely high rate for insurance. Have been raided by governments. Is that what you wish for once the system is privatize?

nepal wrote: you likely won’t ever get it back.

Good

casey60 wrote:I for one will not shed a tear if ICBC monopoly is gone. They are inefficient. Charge an extremely high rate for insurance. Have been raided by governments. Is that what you wish for once the system is privatize?

OKkayak wrote:

nepal wrote: you likely won’t ever get it back.

Good

Well before you jump to a conclusion based on perception instead of fact, let's take a step back.

The attached article from a private Alberta insurance broker discusses the problems that private auto insurance is having in Alberta
https://www.armourinsurance.ca/blog/alb ... -in-crisis

I posted it a few pages ago, but in case you missed it.

Alberta is a province that already has implemented tort reform to help save auto insurance companies losses. Alberta has implemented caps on auto insurance premium increases, and Alberta has full competition and only private auto insurance companies. You know those efficient insurance companies, that don't get "raided by governments

BC is implementing tort reform this fall, the lag for saving will take a while.

I know the "word on the street", but read for yourself, inform yourself, it might not be consistent to the "word on the street".

^^^ I’ve had private insurance before, thanks.

OKkayak wrote:^^^ I’ve had private insurance before, thanks.

I've had private insurance as well.

The facts depend on when and where.

A great thing with Cooperators when you combine insurances Home/Auto, Home/Auto/Biz etc you get a pretty big discount.
They also have an app that shows the packages you've purchased in full detail, also although you get an insurance cards for your wallet & vehicle , it's also on that app. So if you do make changes to your policy you can print that card straight from the app if you can't make it to the office or hasn't come in the mail yet- or in a pinch show the cop straight from your phone(less advisable)
I'm sure Wawanesa,Aviva,Desjardin etc have similar.

jimmy4321 wrote:A great thing with Cooperators when you combine insurances Home/Auto, Home/Auto/Biz etc you get a pretty big discount.
They also have an app that shows the packages you've purchased in full detail, also although you get an insurance cards for your wallet & vehicle , it's also on that app. So if you do make changes to your policy you can print that card straight from the app if you can't make it to the office or in a pinch show the cop straight from your phone(less advisable)
I'm sure Wawaneesa and others have similar.

Not all private insurance is the same.

I've had my M/C insured with Intact for 16 years, no claims, no tickets. A couple of years ago my insurance agent happened to purchase my yearly house insurance with Intact, that got me thinking, maybe it would be a good idea to purchase my auto insurance with Intact and have all my insurance with the same company. As it turned out my local agent couldn't sell Intact auto insurance, so I went the extra mile and contacted the agent the I buy my Intact M/C insurance with in Victoria. I then transferred my house Intact insurance to that same agent in Victoria.

So now I had my home, car and M/C all with Intact and all with the same agent. I was given a small discount for having the home and auto with Intact they didn't much care about the M/C.

The following year, as renewal approached I got a letter giving me the cost of my auto insurance. No claims, no tickets, charges zip. The increase was 46%. I called thinking perhaps there had been a mistake, "Nope, Intact just decided they oversold their book of auto insurance.

I priced out another private insurance company their rate was basically 46% less than Intact,,, and so was ICBC.

Just a business decision for Intact.

That's one thing about ICBC, it is political. They are susceptible to public pressure.

Co-operators , CAA , and maybe Desjardin , I got 3 quotes at the time not certain of Desjardin
I went with Co-operators they all much less expensive than ICBC and they had the combined saving on top of that.
Anyway with same deductibles and 2million liability and a whole bunch of extra loss of use stuff, funeral, rehab etc it came to exactly $955.
Same vehicle a month later ICBC $1800 out of pocket with 43% off , maybe and hopefully things will work in my favour after their changes ? Not holding my breath. In the short term the only fix is to walk or move to ON