Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby Walking Wounded » Aug 25th, 2019, 1:53 pm

AlienSoldier wrote:
bob vernon wrote:Yes, we have to get the atmosphere to the point of no return where runaway climate change takes over and we turn the earth into Venus at about 700 degrees. There is no political will to save us. Only cheap and inadequate platitudes at going green. It's easy to say that climate change is a hoax, but isn't the change obvious?


Why can’t we accomplish both. The Liberal party has been pretty strong on green initiatives so far. With his approval and start up of work they are showing they are strong on the economy as well. It’s a terrific balance between the two. Most other parties would have been too one sided.

Moving oil by pipeline is also more environmentally friendly than by rail or trucks. We also still use enough oil in our lives that it is vital for the near future until other initiatives by the Liberals kick in, such as for green vehicles.

What a joke, if the liberals gave a damn about the economy the pipeline would have been built by a private company. Instead the government bought it and it still took years. If Trudeau had any back bone or cared about the economy the pipeline would be almost complete by now. Trudeau effed this up and cost Canadians a heck of a lot of money for nothing.

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby AlienSoldier » Aug 26th, 2019, 10:29 am

Walking Wounded wrote:What a joke, if the liberals gave a damn about the economy the pipeline would have been built by a private company. Instead the government bought it and it still took years. If Trudeau had any back bone or cared about the economy the pipeline would be almost complete by now. Trudeau effed this up and cost Canadians a heck of a lot of money for nothing.


We tried going the private route with Harper and it did not work. Then the NDP in BC got in the way, the only way this was going to get built was if it was taken over by a larger and higher government entity. Thats why it was taken over. The additional time was to make sure that no one could stop it in the future by dotting the i's and crossing the t's. It was an exercise that was rushed under Harper and came back to bite the company hard.

Regardless, of if its Liberal or Conservative, I'm happy the federal government took ownership and started this moving again. 2022 is not far off and as long as its moving forward we should all be happy. Maybe once it's done it can be sold off at a higher value as the risk is not gone. Keeping in mind that it will be a boost to all governments as they will have built and sold it at a higher cost, the price difference should come down for the provincial government and more people should be employed.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby rustled » Aug 26th, 2019, 11:11 am

WADR, if Trudeau had been doing his job as PM of Canada properly, the buyout wouldn't have become necessary.

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby bb49 » Aug 26th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Does anyone recall Bill Morneau making a statement not long after the purchase of the pipeline, and saying something to this effect:
we'll flip this pipeline and sell it to a private company by the end of the summer.?

I recall it but can't find where he said it.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby seewood » Aug 26th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Regarding the title of this thread: My son is off to Merritt this week to start on aforementioned pipeline....( welder)
I am not wealthy but I am rich

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby rustled » Aug 26th, 2019, 4:59 pm

bb49 wrote:Does anyone recall Bill Morneau making a statement not long after the purchase of the pipeline, and saying something to this effect:
we'll flip this pipeline and sell it to a private company by the end of the summer.?

I recall it but can't find where he said it.
This?
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa ... gain-soon/
When Morneau’s deal closes in August, Canadian taxpayers will become the proprietors of a going-concern pipeline, along with a massive infrastructure task that likely won’t be completed until 2021—carrying construction costs Morneau declined to estimate today. Feeling uneasy? Morneau offered this consolation: “We’ve had expressions of interest from multiple investors over the course of this last month.” Then when does he hope to unload Trans Mountain again? “We would not expect it to be a long-term hold,” he said cautiously. “We would expect it to be a short- or medium-term hold for the government.”
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby JagXKR » Aug 26th, 2019, 5:58 pm

AlienSoldier wrote:We tried going the private route with Harper and it did not work. Then the NDP in BC got in the way,

The big stumbling block you have missed is the eco terrorists. They are a huge reason that the pipeline is such a hot potato. No company wants to have eco terrorists at their business blocking their workers when the eunuchs of the Canadian legal system refuse to uphold the law. The eco terrorists know they won't get any real punishment so they operate with near impunity.
If we had a real justice system the pipe would be nearly completed by now. We don't, so here we are just getting started and the eco terrorists are ready to blockade and get their hands slapped. Actually, more likely, lightly patted.
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby AlienSoldier » Aug 27th, 2019, 5:47 am

JagXKR wrote:
AlienSoldier wrote:We tried going the private route with Harper and it did not work. Then the NDP in BC got in the way,

The big stumbling block you have missed is the eco terrorists. They are a huge reason that the pipeline is such a hot potato. No company wants to have eco terrorists at their business blocking their workers when the eunuchs of the Canadian legal system refuse to uphold the law. The eco terrorists know they won't get any real punishment so they operate with near impunity.
If we had a real justice system the pipe would be nearly completed by now. We don't, so here we are just getting started and the eco terrorists are ready to blockade and get their hands slapped. Actually, more likely, lightly patted.


This is why the federal government building the pipeline is a best case scenerio. The private sector will come in when its nearly complete, or complete and purchase it for the cost plus x%. Benefits Canada and benefits the private sector. I don't see anything wrong with this.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby rustled » Aug 27th, 2019, 9:17 am

AlienSoldier wrote:This is why the federal government building the pipeline is a best case scenerio. The private sector will come in when its nearly complete, or complete and purchase it for the cost plus x%. Benefits Canada and benefits the private sector. I don't see anything wrong with this.

What's wrong is how the "eco terrorists" are now running the show. How do they get to call the shots?

Our country is predicated on democratic decision making and a market relatively free of government involvement. Government should ONLY intervene and use our money when the free market can't or won't provide adequately on its own (e.g. hospitals, schools, roads), natural disasters (flood, fire), or international trade issues.

Here, our federal government was forced to use OUR money because the federal Liberals stood by while one of our provincial governments pandered to "eco terrorists", who are clearly funded by other nations' corporate interests.

The federal Liberals failed to intervene as the NDP-Green intentionally stalled a legitimate business venture for votes. This venture was deemed so necessary to Canada's economy that our federal government had to purchase it. Is this how we believe Canada should operate going forward?

It should never have come to this. Now that it has, we had better not come out massively in debt. But if the NDP-Green provincial government has its way we will see more delays and more impediments to appease "eco terrorists" funded by other nations corporate interests.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby AlienSoldier » Aug 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

rustled wrote:
AlienSoldier wrote:This is why the federal government building the pipeline is a best case scenerio. The private sector will come in when its nearly complete, or complete and purchase it for the cost plus x%. Benefits Canada and benefits the private sector. I don't see anything wrong with this.

What's wrong is how the "eco terrorists" are now running the show. How do they get to call the shots?

Our country is predicated on democratic decision making and a market relatively free of government involvement. Government should ONLY intervene and use our money when the free market can't or won't provide adequately on its own (e.g. hospitals, schools, roads), natural disasters (flood, fire), or international trade issues.

Here, our federal government was forced to use OUR money because the federal Liberals stood by while one of our provincial governments pandered to "eco terrorists", who are clearly funded by other nations' corporate interests.

The federal Liberals failed to intervene as the NDP-Green intentionally stalled a legitimate business venture for votes. This venture was deemed so necessary to Canada's economy that our federal government had to purchase it. Is this how we believe Canada should operate going forward?

It should never have come to this. Now that it has, we had better not come out massively in debt. But if the NDP-Green provincial government has its way we will see more delays and more impediments to appease "eco terrorists" funded by other nations corporate interests.


I agree that it should never have come to this, but the Liberal's did not stop this. Those "eco-terrorists" or Canadians with an alternative passion as I like to call them have become much more atune to laws, rules and regulations as they have evolved to match the lawyers on the corporate side. Since the original process was rushed, it left holes that they poked and caused the delay. It wasn't a Liberal led delay, it was a lack of due process delay.
As for the provincial government causing issues, that is up to BC'ers to decide since they fought the election on that platform and won on it. No private business would be able to push it through, that is why it needed to be de-risked from them.

Hopefully all the holes are filled and it can continue to move forward now without delay.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby rustled » Aug 27th, 2019, 10:47 am

AlienSoldier wrote:I agree that it should never have come to this, but the Liberal's did not stop this. Those "eco-terrorists" or Canadians with an alternative passion as I like to call them have become much more atune to laws, rules and regulations as they have evolved to match the lawyers on the corporate side. Since the original process was rushed, it left holes that they poked and caused the delay. It wasn't a Liberal led delay, it was a lack of due process delay.
As for the provincial government causing issues, that is up to BC'ers to decide since they fought the election on that platform and won on it. No private business would be able to push it through, that is why it needed to be de-risked from them.

Hopefully all the holes are filled and it can continue to move forward now without delay.

Rather than de-rail with another pointless argument about whether or not one can call it a "win" when one comes second:

To believe the federal Liberals had no hand in the delay, we would have to ignore our federal government's ability and responsibility touse the notwithstanding clause[edited: use every tool in the PM's toolbox to convince Horgan to do what is best for Canada and Canadians].

We would have to ignore how the federal Liberal government sat back and allowed the situation to escalate, rather than offend the "Canadians with an alternative passion" by doing what needed to be done, while the clock ran down.

This refusal to stand up for Canadians was, to me, an example of the vast difference between JT and PET.
Last edited by rustled on Aug 28th, 2019, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby AlienSoldier » Aug 27th, 2019, 11:03 am

rustled wrote:
AlienSoldier wrote:I agree that it should never have come to this, but the Liberal's did not stop this. Those "eco-terrorists" or Canadians with an alternative passion as I like to call them have become much more atune to laws, rules and regulations as they have evolved to match the lawyers on the corporate side. Since the original process was rushed, it left holes that they poked and caused the delay. It wasn't a Liberal led delay, it was a lack of due process delay.
As for the provincial government causing issues, that is up to BC'ers to decide since they fought the election on that platform and won on it. No private business would be able to push it through, that is why it needed to be de-risked from them.

Hopefully all the holes are filled and it can continue to move forward now without delay.

Rather than de-rail with another pointless argument about whether or not one can call it a "win" when one comes second:

To believe the federal Liberals had no hand in the delay, we would have to ignore our federal government's ability and responsibility to use the notwithstanding clause.

We would have to ignore how the federal Liberal government sat back and allowed the situation to escalate, rather than offend the "Canadians with an alternative passion" by doing what needed to be done, while the clock ran down.

This refusal to stand up for Canadians was, to me, an example of the vast difference between JT and PET.


I don't believe they sat back though. I remember them meeting and discussing the issues with BC and Alberta. The two provinces just could not meet on an agreement, even when the federal government was throwing money at them for additional safety of the water. This pipeline was going to end-up in court or cancelled one way or another.

By no means is this a win for the liberals, but a failure of Canadian politic's for the last 10 years (Conservative, Liberal and NDP). I am just happy they were able to plug the holes, get the requirements met and start building.
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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby Urbane » Aug 28th, 2019, 8:23 am

    rustled wrote:Rather than de-rail with another pointless argument about whether or not one can call it a "win" when one comes second:

    To believe the federal Liberals had no hand in the delay, we would have to ignore our federal government's ability and responsibility to use the notwithstanding clause.

    We would have to ignore how the federal Liberal government sat back and allowed the situation to escalate, rather than offend the "Canadians with an alternative passion" by doing what needed to be done, while the clock ran down.

    This refusal to stand up for Canadians was, to me, an example of the vast difference between JT and PET.
I agree with you, rustled, that the federal government had a hand in the delay. I'm not sure that the notwithstanding clause would have worked though. Here's an excerpt and a link to an article that addresses that issue:

That was some trick from Ontario Premier Doug Ford.

He invoked the notwithstanding clause to overturn a court ruling against his effort to dismantle Toronto council.

Could Alberta or Ottawa use the same constitutional power to overturn the Federal Court of Appeal’s ruling against the Trans Mountain pipeline?

Some readers hope so. Just apply the notwithstanding rule, the thinking goes, and free Trans Mountain from constitutional shackles.

It won’t work. No chance.

Notwithstanding applies only to certain sections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It allows provinces or Ottawa to exempt a law from the Charter, for a period of five years, after which the power must either lapse or be renewed.

In the pipeline case, the Federal Court of Appeal focused largely on section 35, regarding Indigenous rights.

“Those matters are outside the Charter of Rights and Freedoms; therefore there’s no way you can apply the notwithstanding clause,” says Dr. Nigel Bankes, resource law specialist at the University of Calgary.

The judge’s ruling in the Ontario case focused on free speech, which is clearly a subject for notwithstanding.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/braid-5

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Re: Yes, start hiring and build that pipeline.

Postby rustled » Aug 28th, 2019, 9:27 am

^^Thanks, Urbane. I stand corrected in my assumption about the notwithstanding clause.

I do stand by my belief that ANY prime minister worthy of the office would have pulled the bickering premiers into a room, reminded them they have a responsibility to Canada, and insisted they work it out. I cannot imagine any other PM responding to this situation the lackadaisical way JT did, including PET. (But then, I can't imagine PET allowing himself to be influenced by someone like Butts, either.)

While I certainly hope Morneau is able to turn a profit on this, it will be very difficult to make up for what we've already lost and does not, IMO, excuse the harms done.

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