BC NDP and FOI

[Urbane]

When the BC Liberals were in power the NDP made the point that the government lacked transparency and that FOI requests could be problematic. How times have changed. From Castanet:

Premier John Horgan responded to criticism of proposed changes to FOI bill
Defending FOI changes
Nicholas Johansen - Oct 21, 2021 / 1:40 pm | Story: 349293


Amidst criticism from journalists, universities and B.C.'s privacy commissioner, Premier John Horgan defended his government's proposed bill Thursday that would force those filing freedom of information requests to pay a fee.

Since announcing proposed changed to B.C.'s Freedom of Information and Privacy Act earlier this week, Horgan's NDP government has faced criticism from those saying the changes will decrease government transparency and add roadblocks for those seeking info about the government.

Minister of Citizen’s Services Lisa Beare said the proposed changes could see each individual freedom of information request cost $25, although a fee has not been set yet.

“It's not our intention to restrict people's individual access,” Horgan said. “There has been an extraordinary proliferation in requests for information from political parties, and full disclosure, when I was in opposition, we used the Freedom of Information Act effectively to understand why government's were making decisions.”

In a bizarre performance during Thursday's press conference, Premier John Horgan showed the home screen on his iPhone, in an apparent attempt to show his government has nothing to hide.

“I don't know if you want to zoom in on that, that's my telephone screen,” Horgan said. “You'll see from that that I play Scrabble, I have Spotify, I check my heart rate, I know what the weather's going to be like in Prince Rupert, and I have email, I have text messages, and I have a telephone, and a host of other things that I don't even know what they are.”

The stunt was in apparent reference to a BC Liberals FOI request for data from government officials' phones.

The stunt ignored the fact that journalists, businesses, opposition parties, activists and other British Columbians use the FOI system to uncover important information about the government's workings that may not be included in government press releases.

During Thursday's press conference, Horgan touted his government's “proactive disclosure” of information. But throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, the B.C. government has been criticized for withholding COVID-19 information that other provinces have regularly provided.

Former B.C. Liberal Leader Andrew Wilkinson said the NDP is “using fees to keep people’s noses out of the government they own.” B.C.’s independent information and privacy commissioner Michael McEvoy called the bill a “step backward.”

Lots more here: https://vancouversun.com/news/politics/ ... nformation

[marooned]

"changes could see each individual freedom of information request cost $25"

I support this very small fee for a Freedom of Information request. Think about the effort it takes to pull together the information requested. I bet printing costs for some requests exceed this fee.

Political parties will pay the fee as they perceive will be repaid in seats in the next election if they uncover something unsavoury.
Media companies will pay the fee as they profit from the news they create (or in the case of CBC, have a mandate to do so).
Concerned members of the public will pay the fee if they have something they want to pursue.

The current state has opened the floodgates to requests. I could file 50 FOI's this afternoon, using the link here:

https://foirequestform.gov.bc.ca/?general=

[marooned]

When the BC Liberals were in power the NDP made the point that the government lacked transparency and that FOI requests could be problematic. How times have changed.

Somewhere deep in my recesses I recall that the issue had with Liberal responses to FOI requests was delays in processing. Can anyone confirm?

[Urban Cowboy]

When the BC Liberals were in power the NDP made the point that the government lacked transparency and that FOI requests could be problematic. How times have changed.

Somewhere deep in my recesses I recall that the issue had with Liberal responses to FOI requests was delays in processing. Can anyone confirm?

Not certain but highly probable, but who's to say that even with a fee, the same situation won't repeat itself under the NDP, particularly if it concerns a topic they'd rather not discuss?

[spooker]

Personally I've made FOI requests ... and I don't see any issue with the fee ... though I'd expect since there would be a value on it then processing will be better (read: faster) and maybe if it does drop the frivolous requests that means that there will be greater transparency ... gotta try it and see if I'm living in a fantasy world (won't be the first time)

[Drip_Torch]

"changes could see each individual freedom of information request cost $25"

I support this very small fee for a Freedom of Information request. Think about the effort it takes to pull together the information requested. I bet printing costs for some requests exceed this fee.

Political parties will pay the fee as they perceive will be repaid in seats in the next election if they uncover something unsavoury.
Media companies will pay the fee as they profit from the news they create (or in the case of CBC, have a mandate to do so).
Concerned members of the public will pay the fee if they have something they want to pursue.

The current state has opened the floodgates to requests. I could file 50 FOI's this afternoon, using the link here:

https://foirequestform.gov.bc.ca/?general=

If you do file 50 FOI's this afternoon word them carefully and narrow the target as much as possible. There are fee's to cover the search and management of the request and, of course, the cost of the black ink they use to redact the information. It's a lot of fun, for the analysts. Once they compiled all the information to be redacted they toss the pile into the air and then paper clip random papers together into small stacks.

$25 to get on the amusement ride and throw a few darts while blindfolded... meh, I'm not sure it will end the world. I would be more impressed if there was a trade-off and the language around timelines and a duty to document was strengthened in our favour.

[Drip_Torch]

Somewhere deep in my recesses I recall that the issue had with Liberal responses to FOI requests was delays in processing. Can anyone confirm?

Not certain but highly probable, but who's to say that even with a fee, the same situation won't repeat itself under the NDP, particularly if it concerns a topic they'd rather not discuss?

Delays? You mean over and above the standard, run of the mill delays that happen with every request, or delays that take years? I've experienced both. Sure, could have put in an appeal to the commissioner, but that would have created more delays while the matter was under investigation.

I personally think, when we're talking about delays, we're talking human nature and the just the way things are within any organization - not really anything to do with which gov't has control of the reigns. I haven't noticed a difference in how these things are handled.

Bottom line, no-one enjoys having someone looking over their shoulder, but it is a function of accountability and vital to democracy.

I'll add - not to be all negative, there are some great experiences requesting information too. I've had very helpful staff point out what I really want and I've paid no fees at all. I think if it's routine information, information that the agency or ministry is proud of and wants to get out - they are extremely helpful, the fees are reasonable, or waved and it moves reasonably fast. If someone gets the impression you're looking for a smoking gun, fees go up and things slow down.

Like I said, human nature plays a role in it all.

[Drip_Torch]

So here's an example of how and why I start feeling some ambivalence towards the fee.

"OMG, Horgan the ape is trying to get $742 out of me for this freedom of information request".

.

.
First off, you have the freedom to request the information. The gov't has the duty to collect fees to manage the costs of your exercise of that freedom.

In this case, the individual wants 1 years worth of all electronically stored communications. There's going to be a bunch of black ink involved, but okay. So an analyst has done the search and determined there will be 7 hours of work involved in reviewing the information to ensure compliance with the act. The first 3 hours are free of charges.

There has already been work done, the files had to be searched to compile the estimate.

If the individual now abandons the request, that ends the matter and the taxpayer is left footing the full bill for the work that has been completed on this request. Is it worth $25? Is it a function of accountability and something taxpayers should cover?

I don't know, but I do understand how the process could be abused.

( What previous gov'ts did, or didn't do...pfft - couldn't care less. Question is, how much of this is something I'm willing to fund and how reasonable is a $25 fee going forward. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.)

[Urbane]

Yes, you have the freedom to request the information which you may or may not receive. Horgan in opposition was all about filing a gazillion FOI requests, he freely admits, in an attempt to embarrass the government. Well, why not? Transparency is a good thing. Now with the shoe on the other foot Horgan doesn't want to be embarrassed himself and so BC joins Alberta as the only two jurisdictions in Canada to charge a fee. A fee that may start off at $25 but who knows where it might go.

It's not the fee itself that troubles me as much as the hypocrisy. The NDP promised to do things differently and to be more open but that's simply not what's happening. Imagine, the information commissioner, who opposes the fee, will not have the right to waive the fee if he believes the FOI request is in the public interest. Is that really good policy? I think not. Horgan is a politician and so what he said in opposition is simply not what he does in government. Pure hypocrisy and it's fair to point it out.

[Urban Cowboy]

Yes, you have the freedom to request the information which you may or may not receive. Horgan in opposition was all about filing a gazillion FOI requests, he freely admits, in an attempt to embarrass the government. Well, why not? Transparency is a good thing. Now with the shoe on the other foot Horgan doesn't want to be embarrassed himself and so BC joins Alberta as the only two jurisdictions in Canada to charge a fee. A fee that may start off at $25 but who knows where it might go.

It's not the fee itself that troubles me as much as the hypocrisy. The NDP promised to do things differently and to be more open but that's simply not what's happening. Imagine, the information commissioner, who opposes the fee, will not have the right to waive the fee if he believes the FOI request is in the public interest. Is that really good policy? I think not. Horgan is a politician and so what he said in opposition is simply not what he does in government. Pure hypocrisy and it's fair to point it out.

[Drip_Torch]

Yes, you have the freedom to request the information which you may or may not receive. Horgan in opposition was all about filing a gazillion FOI requests, he freely admits, in an attempt to embarrass the government. Well, why not? Transparency is a good thing. Now with the shoe on the other foot Horgan doesn't want to be embarrassed himself and so BC joins Alberta as the only two jurisdictions in Canada to charge a fee. A fee that may start off at $25 but who knows where it might go.

It's not the fee itself that troubles me as much as the hypocrisy. The NDP promised to do things differently and to be more open but that's simply not what's happening. Imagine, the information commissioner, who opposes the fee, will not have the right to waive the fee if he believes the FOI request is in the public interest. Is that really good policy? I think not. Horgan is a politician and so what he said in opposition is simply not what he does in government. Pure hypocrisy and it's fair to point it out.

I don't completely disagree with you.

Fun facts, (2015 version)

- 8000 to 10000 requests per year (two, almost three times as many per capita as Ontario).
- estimated cost of processing these requests $20 million
- budget of the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner $5 million
- cost to process the average request $ 2250
- fees were collected on 2% of all requests

If you're saying that's the cost of maintaining an accountable gov't and the taxpayer should simply be picking up the tab, I'm not sure I agree. If all your saying is an NDP majority gov't appears to be abandoning the principles they stood for in opposition - then yeah, I can agree with that. (I've lived in BC for a few decades - I've seen something like this many times before. )

The amendments to the act don't seem to follow the committee recommendations:

 Proactive disclosure;
 Duty to document;
 Information management in government;
 Data sovereignty;
 The application of FIPPA to subsidiary corporations and other entities;
 The FOI process, including timelines to respond to access requests, and anonymity of
applicants; and
 Mandatory breach notification.

... and that is disappointing. Especially, the lack of attention to the underlined.

Composition of the Committee
Members
Don McRae, MLA Chair Comox Valley
Doug Routley, MLA Deputy Chair Nanaimo-North Cowichan
Kathy Corrigan, MLA Burnaby-Deer Lake
David Eby, MLA Vancouver-Point Grey
Eric Foster, MLA Vernon-Monashee
Sam Sullivan, MLA Vancouver-False Creek
Jackie Tegart, MLA Fraser-Nicola
John Yap, MLA Richmond-Steveston

[Urbane]

^^ Yes, as I say my main concern isn't with the fee but rather it's what you said, i.e. an NDP majority gov't appears to be abandoning the principles they stood for in opposition.

[Drip_Torch]

Breaking News

I don't know how this went unnoticed by the media, but I'm reviewing today's chamber video and it appears Dan Ashton has called it.

Channeling the much respected former Cowichan Valley New Democrat MLA Bill Routley, Mr. Ashton called "jiggery pokery" on the NDP's Bill 22.



Respect!

If that doesn't cause the pause, I don't know what will.



For those of you that don't know the backstory. "Jiggery Pokery" is an absolute gentleman's secret dog whistle that only progressives can hear. It means pay attention the gov't is up to some sneaky stuff.

[Urbane]

When John Horgan was leader of the opposition he was fine with calling ministers things like the "Minister of Obfuscation" but then when he ended up as premier he had an epiphany. It was wrong to do that because ministers should be treated with respect.

Now he's had another epiphany. When he was leader of the opposition he used the FOI act to file, without cost to him or his party, a gazillion requests in order to find something that would embarrass the government. Now that he's premier he thinks such practice is just not good. Of course. In opposition Horgan was all for transparency and now when reporters try to find out exactly why his office budget is up 65% they have trouble getting answers. How come?

When it comes to principles I always think of the quote from a Marx Brothers movie: “Those are my principles, and if you don't like them…well, I have others." Indeed.

[Drip_Torch]

When he was leader of the opposition he used the FOI act to file, without cost to him or his party, a gazillion requests in order to find something that would embarrass the government. Now that he's premier he thinks such practice is just not good. Of course. In opposition Horgan was all for transparency and now when reporters try to find out exactly why his office budget is up 65% they have trouble getting answers. How come?

I'm assuming Dan Ashton didn't call jiggery pokery lightly and I'm really taking a good hard look at what is going on with this section of bill 22.

I have some concerns.

One of things that I'm not so concerned about is the $25 fee. I don't believe the Liberal, or the Green party would be on the hook for payment of the fee. I believe that would be a caucus expense and therefore a wash. ie: the gov't of British Columbia paying the expense to/for the gov't of British Columbia.

At the moment, I would broadly express my concern as not following the committee process. The recommendations of the previous committees have been largely ignored and the new committee hasn't even started work yet. I like to think I/we elect representatives to represent us and not just take up seats in Victoria to be tasked with busy work that is meaningless.

The other concern is around allowing data to be stored and administered outside of British Columbia. I was part of the "Sony breach" and frankly that aspect of the bill does cause a bit of a chill for me.

It's not a big amendment, but there's also a huge void in it. There's no reg's being amended with the act. You're right though, on first read this legislation appears to serve the sitting gov't and not the people of British Columbia.

I'm still looking at it.