Should the West separate?

[dudlee]

Politics are simple ,the people with the power the longest win.Whoever lies and manipulates the best wins.The people with the gold make the rules and the best way to keep it that way is to take the money from those that have it and keep it for yourselves, Quebec and Ontario.If the west doesn't complain or protest just take more.The enemy of my enemy is my friend manipulation works the best, ie, Danny Williams, Gile Duceppe,Russ Hardgrave etc etc.

[usquebaugh]

So you admit that the Conservatives are lying and manipulating others to stay in power?

[dudlee]

September 9, 2004

Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson,
C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D.
Governor General
Rideau Hall
1 Sussex Drive
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A1

Excellency,

As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the
Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister
to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons
fail to support some part of the government’s program.

We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together
constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We
believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give
you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the
opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising
your constitutional authority.

Your attention to this matter is appreciated.

Sincerely,

Hon. Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P.
Leader of the Opposition
Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada

Gilles Duceppe, M.P.
Leader of the Bloc Quebecois

Jack Layton, M.P.
Leader of the New Democratic Party

Here you are dudlee, since you seem to be in denial. Even the Tories agree that such a letter was written and signed, although they claim it was done in a different spirit.

But opposition members have denied the charges. They fired back with charges of hypocrisy, citing a letter to former governor general Adrienne Clarkson in 2004, signed by then opposition leaders Harper, Gilles Duceppe and Jack Layton that discussed the prospects of dissolving Parliament if the government of Paul Martin, the prime minister, was to be defeated.

The letter stated that the opposition parties, which constituted a majority in the House, have "been in close consultation" and that if Clarkson was asked to dissolve Parliament, she should "consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority."

The Tories counter that that agreement was different because it didn't include a formal coalition.

Here's the whole link , not just you part http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/ ... risis.html

Secondly , it's from the CBC the most Liberal biased so-called news agency in Canada.The CBC has a beef with Harper because Harper wants to reduce their funding because 90% of their programming is CRAP.

IE Airfart, The Hour, Falcon beached, Digassi the next Urination,Anne of Green Vomit, This hour has 22 seconds {of quality}, and on and on , the only good show is"Corner Gas" , and their leaving because the cbc doesn't pay the good shows more for being good , they pay them the same as the crappy ones.

[usquebaugh]

I suppose you missed the URL in my quote. Hint: It's the blue underlined font in the quote from the article.

But opposition members have denied the charges. They fired back with charges of hypocrisy, citing a letter to former governor general Adrienne Clarkson in 2004, signed by then opposition leaders Harper, Gilles Duceppe and Jack Layton that discussed the prospects of dissolving Parliament if the government of Paul Martin, the prime minister, was to be defeated.

The letter stated that the opposition parties, which constituted a majority in the House, have "been in close consultation" and that if Clarkson was asked to dissolve Parliament, she should "consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority."

Click on it and see where it leads. It's basic html coding.

[usquebaugh]

Since you don't like the CBC (not surprising from a Conservative voter), here's an article from CTV, which does have a right wing bent, or else Mike Duffy wouldn't be a Senator.

Harper wrong on democracy claims: experts

Updated Thu. Dec. 4 2008 5:59 PM ET

Jim Brown, The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- If there's one point on which Stephen Harper has been adamant, it's his claim that the opposition politicians trying to strip him of power are undermining democracy.

"The Canadian government has always been chosen by the people," the prime minister declared in his mid-week televised address to the country.

But now, he told viewers, a coalition of opposition parties is trying to oust him through a backroom deal "without your say, without your consent and without your vote."

Just how valid is Harper's claim that changing governments without a new election would be undemocratic?

"It's politics, it's pure rhetoric," said Ned Franks, a retired Queen's University expert on parliamentary affairs. "Everything that's been happening is both legal and constitutional."

Other scholars are virtually unanimous in their agreement. They say Harper's populist theory of democracy is more suited to a U.S.-style presidential system, in which voters cast ballots directly for a national leader, than it is to Canadian parliamentary democracy.

"He's appealing to people who learned their civics from American television," said Henry Jacek, a political scientist at McMaster University.

Harper signed similar document in 2004

In Canada, there's no national vote for prime minister. People elect MPs in 308 ridings, and a government holds power only as long as it has the support of a majority of those MPs.

"We have a rule that the licence to govern is having the confidence of the House of Commons," said Peter Russell, a former University of Toronto professor and adviser to past governors general.

"I'm sorry, that's the rule. If they want to change it to having a public opinion poll, we'd have to reform and rewrite our Constitution."

Harper himself signed a letter to then-Governor General Adrienne Clarkson in 2004, claiming the right to form a government if Paul Martin's minority Liberals could be defeated in a confidence vote in the Commons.

His ostensible partners would have been NDP Leader Jack Layton and Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe -- now derided by Harper as the "socialist" and the "separatist" in Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's coalition.

"I was just as much a sovereigntist then as I am now," Duceppe sniffed Thursday in a reference to Harper's new-found aversion to any deals with the Bloc.

Such facts are conveniently forgotten by some members of Harper's cabinet who have been even more vocal than their boss in the current crisis.

Revenue Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn has characterized the opposition effort to bring down the Tories as a "coup d'etat."

Transport Minister John Baird spoke Thursday of the need for the Conservatives to go "over the heads" of both Parliament and Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean to take their case straight to the people.

There's no doubt the central Harper claim -- that he can't legitimately be dumped from office without a new election -- is dead wrong, said Jonathan Rose, a Queen's University political scientist.

But as a communications strategy it has the virtue of being simple, direct and powerful.

"He's using this bludgeon of an argument (but) most people just see the word democracy and have some intuitive connection to it," said Rose.

By contrast, the theory and practice of parliamentary confidence and responsible cabinet government take some explaining.

But Harper may have undermined his own effort Thursday with his visit to the Governor General to get permission to shut down Parliament for seven weeks.

It was the only way he could dodge a confidence vote that would have toppled his government next Monday. But it also presented the Liberals, NDP and Bloc with a ready-made response to the prime minister's claim of democratic superiority.

"You need something visceral and simple," said Rose. "The opposition metaphor of locking the doors to Parliament does it. I think people understand that."

[NAB]

September 9, 2004

Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson,
C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D.
Governor General
Rideau Hall
1 Sussex Drive
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A1

Excellency,

As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the
Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister
to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons
fail to support some part of the government’s program.

We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together
constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We
believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give
you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the
opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising
your constitutional authority.

Your attention to this matter is appreciated.

Sincerely,

Hon. Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P.
Leader of the Opposition
Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada

Gilles Duceppe, M.P.
Leader of the Bloc Quebecois

Jack Layton, M.P.
Leader of the New Democratic Party

Here you are dudlee, since you seem to be in denial. Even the Tories agree that such a letter was written and signed, although they claim it was done in a different spirit.

But opposition members have denied the charges. They fired back with charges of hypocrisy, citing a letter to former governor general Adrienne Clarkson in 2004, signed by then opposition leaders Harper, Gilles Duceppe and Jack Layton that discussed the prospects of dissolving Parliament if the government of Paul Martin, the prime minister, was to be defeated.

The letter stated that the opposition parties, which constituted a majority in the House, have "been in close consultation" and that if Clarkson was asked to dissolve Parliament, she should "consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority."

The Tories counter that that agreement was different because it didn't include a formal coalition.

Here's the whole link , not just you part http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/ ... risis.html

Secondly , it's from the CBC the most Liberal biased so-called news agency in Canada.The CBC has a beef with Harper because Harper wants to reduce their funding because 90% of their programming is CRAP.

IE Airfart, The Hour, Falcon beached, Digassi the next Urination,Anne of Green Vomit, This hour has 22 seconds {of quality}, and on and on , the only good show is"Corner Gas" , and their leaving because the cbc doesn't pay the good shows more for being good , they pay them the same as the crappy ones.

I honestly don't know why that letter gets so much play and spin. It merely asked the GG to grant the leaders of the opposition input and consideration before allowing the minority government to have its way. It doesn't suggest (that I can see) that they were prepared to form a coalition government without an election offering that alternative to the electorate during a campaign, or that a coalition agreement had even been entered into. It merely advises that the three opposition leaders were in agreement that they would like to be granted an audience to present their individual cases for consideration, whatever they may have been.

Edit: To my mind, one of the options that could have been presented to the GG by the opposition leaders might have been her refusing to allow the government to dodge an issue by resigning and forcing an election themselves at a time of their own choosing. That was the purpose of Harper's attempt to establish fixed election dates (like we have her in BC). But the current opposition forced an escape mechanism to be left in because they thought it might be to their advantage down the road. It worked instead to Harpers advantage, and then they complained that HE used it and broke his "promise". Hypocrites. It was their own fault!

Nab

[AlanH]

Oh... Layton signed it. It's not worth anything more than toilet paper.

[usquebaugh]

dudlee, once again, would you like to explain why you think the letter is a fabrication of the liberal media, when the Conservatives admit to having written and signed said document? I'd say you should try to find the document on the CPC's website, but since this government loves its secrecy, there's no point in trying to hunt for documents or information there.

[sanemind]

dudlee, once again, would you like to explain why you think the letter is a fabrication of the liberal media, when the Conservatives admit to having written and signed said document? I'd say you should try to find the document on the CPC's website, but since this government loves its secrecy, there's no point in trying to hunt for documents or information there.

All you layton lovers are very of one mind

[dudlee]

dudlee, once again, would you like to explain why you think the letter is a fabrication of the liberal media, when the Conservatives admit to having written and signed said document? I'd say you should try to find the document on the CPC's website, but since this government loves its secrecy, there's no point in trying to hunt for documents or information there.

All you layton lovers are very of one mind

Layton lovers, i love that, they have a taste for blood then one of their attack dogs turns on them and the aggressor becomes the hunted.If you love the NDP so much move to Manitoba.

I believe that political SPIN is taking over to the point where the lies, or more accurately the half truths,far out number the facts.It is a proven and known fact that Harper and the Conservatives injected $billions into the Banking sector to stablize them in the fall of 2007.The opposition conveniently neglect to state that fact as it would demean their lies that the government has done nothing.Now look who is not infavor of this budget.Quebec and their separatists, and the Toronto , manitoba NDP, oh and Danny Williams.

What does this budget do for the WEST? Nothing really. 90% of the money will stay in central canada and the east.Quebec is saying that they will not get the same amount of money as they normally do.Well welcome to how the WEST gets treated Pal.

[usquebaugh]

dudlee, once again, would you like to explain why you think the letter is a fabrication of the liberal media, when the Conservatives admit to having written and signed said document? I'd say you should try to find the document on the CPC's website, but since this government loves its secrecy, there's no point in trying to hunt for documents or information there.

All you layton lovers are very of one mind

Layton lovers, i love that, they have a taste for blood then one of their attack dogs turns on them and the aggressor becomes the hunted.If you love the NDP so much move to Manitoba.

I believe that political SPIN is taking over to the point where the lies, or more accurately the half truths,far out number the facts.It is a proven and known fact that Harper and the Conservatives injected $billions into the Banking sector to stablize them in the fall of 2007.The opposition conveniently neglect to state that fact as it would demean their lies that the government has done nothing.Now look who is not infavor of this budget.Quebec and their separatists, and the Toronto , manitoba NDP, oh and Danny Williams.

What does this budget do for the WEST? Nothing really. 90% of the money will stay in central canada and the east.Quebec is saying that they will not get the same amount of money as they normally do.Well welcome to how the WEST gets treated Pal.

Why? I am anticipating the demise of the BC Liberals this May and, in particular, Campbell being ousted from power.

So you don't want to accept that Harper wrote that letter? Is that it?

[dudlee]

So you admit that the Conservatives are lying and manipulating others to stay in power?

Can you read? Or is misinterpretation your only means of conversation?

[dudlee]

dudlee, once again, would you like to explain why you think the letter is a fabrication of the liberal media, when the Conservatives admit to having written and signed said document? I'd say you should try to find the document on the CPC's website, but since this government loves its secrecy, there's no point in trying to hunt for documents or information there.

All you layton lovers are very of one mind

Layton lovers, i love that, they have a taste for blood then one of their attack dogs turns on them and the aggressor becomes the hunted.If you love the NDP so much move to Manitoba.

I believe that political SPIN is taking over to the point where the lies, or more accurately the half truths,far out number the facts.It is a proven and known fact that Harper and the Conservatives injected $billions into the Banking sector to stablize them in the fall of 2007.The opposition conveniently neglect to state that fact as it would demean their lies that the government has done nothing.Now look who is not infavor of this budget.Quebec and their separatists, and the Toronto , manitoba NDP, oh and Danny Williams.

What does this budget do for the WEST? Nothing really. 90% of the money will stay in central canada and the east.Quebec is saying that they will not get the same amount of money as they normally do.Well welcome to how the WEST gets treated Pal.

Why? I am anticipating the demise of the BC Liberals this May and, in particular, Campbell being ousted from power.

So you don't want to accept that Harper wrote that letter? Is that it?

Do you admit that the 1926 appointment of a Coalition government didn't work and that is why it has never been granted since that time? and that this attempt is both based in lies and deceit?

[JohnCambell]

What is with the Harper coalition thing. I know ive heard about it now, but why not back when it happened. I don't think it was quite the same thing was it?

[AlanH]

So you admit that the Conservatives are lying and manipulating others to stay in power?

Can you read? Or is misinterpretation your only means of conversation?

Reading is not in the NDP's plan of Governance when it comes to voting on budgets, so why should their supporters be expected to do any different.