Life, liberty and security of the person

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eMeM
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Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by eMeM »

So a couple of threads I've read today have got me considering a few things. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says:

LIFE, LIBERTY AND SECURITY OF PERSON.
7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.


Shall we ponder what life, liberty and security of the person actually mean?

Life - well to maintain life we need a few things, right? Food, water, shelter. What about healthcare? Would/should/is that included? Where does the charter say we must PAY to get those things? Why are we paying for licenses to shoot food? Why are we paying a private company to deliver to us water? Better yet - why does a private company have control of our water in order to produce electricity (and in turn, make huge profits)? If it's our water - why are we paying for it? If it's our water and they're making a killing off of it, where are our dividends?

Liberty - (I'll start with a definition)
"lib·er·ty (lbr-t)
n. pl. lib·er·ties
1.
a. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
c. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.
Idiom:
at liberty
1. Not in confinement or under constraint; free.
2. Not employed, occupied, or in use."


If we have the right to liberty, why then are we forever begging for permission to do things that otherwise (and previously) were perfectly lawful? Examples would be hunting, fishing, driving, building a home, acquiring land, etc. If liberty is freedom from restriction and control, why is damn near everything we do restricted and controlled?

Security of the person
"In 1982, a right to security of the person was added to the Constitution. It was included in section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which stipulates that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." Security of the person in section 7 consists of rights to privacy of the body and its health[3] and of the right protecting the "psychological integrity" of an individual. That is, the right protects against significant government-inflicted harm (stress) to the mental state of the individual. (Blencoe v. B.C. (Human Rights Commission), 2000)"

Okay, referring to the bolded type quoted above, can we think of a few ways that fundamental right has been trampled? Those new whole body nudey scanners come to mind. Again health care comes to mind - if we have a right to our bodies and their health, why then are we paying healthcare premiums? If we have a right to our bodies and their health why does the government wish to control what we can put into them? If we have the right to the privacy of our bodies why must we now go through scanners than can see every bulge, bag and the burrito you had for lunch? (Okay, the burrito is a stretch but it sounded good)

Are we so afraid of ourselves that we will allow our public servants to strip us of all of our rights a little at a time?
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by steven lloyd »

eMeM wrote: Are we so afraid of ourselves that we will allow our public servants to strip us of all of our rights a little at a time?

Maybe we should be afraid of ourselves. Do you watch/read the news ? Do you read some of the things that get posted on this forum even ? I think we have good reason to be afraid of ourselves.
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eMeM
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by eMeM »

Do you seriously believe that humanity is so far gone that we need all of these regulations, statutes and bylaws to govern our every move? Why Steven, I'm insulted and I think you should be too. I think most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly. No?
Yes there are some pretty rotten people out there and I agree wholeheartedly that they should be dealt with. I'm certainly not against law or civil society. I'm questioning why the rights of many are being taken away because of the actions of a few. I'm also questioning why others don't even consider what their rights are and why we as a society are so complacent and quick to say "Well it's for our own good" when they're taken away.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Smurf
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by Smurf »

eMeM I believe part of your answer lies in your own bolded print.

2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control


What is unjust and undue. I'm sure everyone of us has a different idea on that depending on our likes and dislikes. If you speed you probably feel that speedlimits are unjust. I however feel they are a very necessary part of life. This can go on and on.

Steven says we should be afraid of ourselves. I agree with him to a great extent. Who brings about all our laws and controls? We do because we can't seem to control ourselves in a manner that is proper to live in a free society with life, liberty and security. I would also say this means safety. Meaning no impaired drivers, no speeders, no thieves, you name it. Yes it may actually be a small majotity that commit the worst offenses but most, all of us do commit offenses even if we do not want to admit it. It is all these things that add up to restrictions. You cannot give people total freedom or you would end up with total chaos and I'm sure deep down we all realize that although we would like to think different.

When I worked as a safety officer I realized how bad very good people actually are. People will knowingly do things that endanger themselves, their friends and fellow workers. Absolutely stupid things. We had to make rules to protect not only the fools but everyone around them. We weren't trying to be mean, nasty or controlling. We were just trying to see that our fellow workers, friends whatever went home to see their famillies each night.

Can you see where I'm coming from? In many cases these controls actually give us more freedom and safety to carry on our everyday lives.
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have of changing others.

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steven lloyd
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by steven lloyd »

eMeM wrote:Do you seriously believe that humanity is so far gone that we need all of these regulations, statutes and bylaws to govern our every move? Why Steven, I'm insulted and I think you should be too. I think most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly. No?

Yes, I imagine “most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly”. Many of them would be lying to themselves and to us, but I’m sure there are a vast number who could do just that. Why should I be insulted that we would want to protect ourselves from the many self-absorbed, uncaring and self-centered idiots (just to get started on the descriptors) that live in our society oblivious to the consequences of their actions on others? I’d be more insulted if you tried to suggest I was naive enough to believe our society would survive in any palatable form without regulations and rules.
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Smurf
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by Smurf »

steven lloyd wrote:

I’d be more insulted if you tried to suggest I was naive enough to believe our society would survive in any palatable form without regulations and rules.


I have to agree with that 100%. Freedom is a relavent thing. Restrictions/controls are relevant to each our feelings. It is a hard thing to judge as each one of us feels different about them and their necessity. Good topic for discussion but I feel will be hard to get any real consensus.
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have of changing others.

The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes their way.
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zzontar
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by zzontar »

eMeM wrote: I think most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly. No?


If you want to live in a place where the people govern themselves, you could always move to Somalia.
:127:
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steven lloyd
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by steven lloyd »

zzontar wrote: If you want to live in a place where the people govern themselves, you could always move to Somalia. :127:

Ah yes, libertarianism at its finest.
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Fritzthecat
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by Fritzthecat »

zzontar wrote:
eMeM wrote: I think most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly. No?


If you want to live in a place where the people govern themselves, you could always move to Somalia.
:127:

Somalia should be safe. They don't have gun laws. :dyinglaughing:
Calling yourself a libertarian today is a lot like wearing a mullet back in the nineteen eighties.
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by Liberty and Truth »

Fritzthecat wrote:
zzontar wrote:
eMeM wrote: I think most people would argue that they are decent, competent human beings that can govern themselves accordingly. No?


If you want to live in a place where the people govern themselves, you could always move to Somalia.
:127:

Somalia should be safe. They don't have gun laws. :dyinglaughing:


you are sure about that?
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steven lloyd
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by steven lloyd »

Liberty and Truth wrote:
Fritzthecat wrote: Somalia should be safe. They don't have gun laws. :dyinglaughing:

you are sure about that?

Yes, the group with the most guns and biggest guns is the law.
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Fritzthecat
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by Fritzthecat »

Somalia:Right Wing Heaven
Little to no government telling you what to do and when to do it, no taxes to pay and waste by large government, no welfare hand-outs, no gun laws and a population of 9.1 million devoted to God (OK, Allah, but who's counting.....)
What are y'all waiting for? It is EXACTLY what y'all say you want for this country. Pack yer bags and go now!
Calling yourself a libertarian today is a lot like wearing a mullet back in the nineteen eighties.
When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist. Bishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
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nolanrh
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by nolanrh »

Section 1 is actually a very important one. It distinguishes our rights from the unqualified rights in the US and allows the government to favour social or group rights over individual rights where they can justify it.

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society


I'm also not sure liberty has been interpreted as liberally as you interpret it. I don't think the Supreme Court considers driving or fishing regulations to be infringement of our section 7 rights.
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steven lloyd
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by steven lloyd »

nolanrh wrote:Section 1 is actually a very important one. It distinguishes our rights from the unqualified rights in the US and allows the government to favour social or group rights over individual rights where they can justify it.

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society

And thank God (or whatever) for that. I am somewhat comforted knwing I have a reasonable amount of certainty (no guarantee of course) that my next door neighbor isn't armed to the teeth with various handguns and assault rifles and stockpiled with ammunition. I've served in the Forces and have been trained in the maintenance and use of such weapons and yet feel no need to have an armada in my basement (God I love living in Canada). Scary to think how those libertarian whackjobs in the US think gun ownership is simply a right (In fact some passage of right into adulthood sometimes? Freaking scary.) without any associated responsibility.
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quietlywatching84
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Re: Life, liberty and security of the person

Post by quietlywatching84 »

My history teacher used to ramble on about how Liberty in a increasingly complex and interconnected society is a pair of ducks.

Never really understood what he meant by that.
Silence is golden and duct tape is silver.

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