Texas conservatives reject Harper's crime plan

[CorkSoaker]

Already been addressed in other threads. Ad nauseum. Now that the law is finally to be changed, we will see the truth of the matter. Nothing left to debate on that front any more.

Nab

Since I am not a very active poster could you be so kind as to direct me to a specific thread that shows exactly what info is being skewed, because that is a pretty broad claim to make with no back up.

[NAB]

Pick any thread in the forums that has to do with marijuana or drugs legalization or decriminalization for starters. Lots of reading and information there in answer to your interest.

Nab

[CorkSoaker]

Pick any thread in the forums that has to do with marijuana or drugs legalization or decriminalization for starters. Lots of reading and information there in answer to your interest.

Nab

Oh so you are just talking about the stats concerning drugs and prohibition. Those are the ones being skewed. What about the other stuff that have nothing to do with drugs. Skewed too?

[NAB]

Once you get away from all the blather about the impact of these changes related to drugs and the serious crime that spins off from it, there's not a whole lot for anyone to worry about.

Nab

[CorkSoaker]

Once you get away from all the blather about the impact of these changes related to drugs and the serious crime that spins off from it, there's not a whole lot for anyone to worry about.

Nab

Well, like you said. We shall see.

[zzontar]

I liken the people who are in favor of Harper's stance to people who still believe the Earth is flat. No matter how much proof is put in front of them, they still insist on putting the blinders on. It doesn't work here, it doesn't work there, it doesn't work anywhere... I'm p/ssed off that I have to pay into an idea that's GUARANTEED to fail. Come on, next election!

[BriTer]

I believe we have plenty to worry about. It is a major problem now and one I think that is being exacerbated by the direction the 'Get Tough On Crime' policy is taking.
If we invest more on incarceration and less on crime prevention in the way of treatment of those problems that make up the majority of causes for said imprisonment then we are helping the problem to grow.
We read often enough about cop's frustration in making an arrest and then a week later arresting the same individual(s) for pretty much the same crime. Will keeping them in jail longer solve the problem? No. They'll still get out eventually with no change in lifestyle or life choices.
I say spend much more on the root of the problem and less on hiding it away for a time.

[BriTer]

I liken the people who are in favor of Harper's stance to people who still believe the Earth is flat. No matter how much proof is put in front of them, they still insist on putting the blinders on. It doesn't work here, it doesn't work there, it doesn't work anywhere... I'm p/ssed off that I have to pay into an idea that's GUARANTEED to fail. Come on, next election!

Too late. Most likely these new measures will take place before any election and you can bet at that point they will NOT be repealed, until such time as it is discovered, after the fact, that .... OOPS! we screwed up.

[NAB]

I believe we have plenty to worry about. It is a major problem now and one I think that is being exacerbated by the direction the 'Get Tough On Crime' policy is taking.
If we invest more on incarceration and less on crime prevention in the way of treatment of those problems that make up the majority of causes for said imprisonment then we are helping the problem to grow.
We read often enough about cop's frustration in making an arrest and then a week later arresting the same individual(s) for pretty much the same crime. Will keeping them in jail longer solve the problem? No. They'll still get out eventually with no change in lifestyle or life choices.
I say spend much more on the root of the problem and less on hiding it away for a time.

K, so what is "the root of the problem" (in Canada obviously), in fact what produces "criminals" (of each type) in the first place, and what specifically should be done to prevent certain sectors of our society from engaging in SERIOUS criminal behaviour, often to the extent that there is no choice or alternative but to lock them up to stop the criminal behaviour?

Nab

[Bagotricks]

Social programs have been shown time in/time out to counter crime, as demonstrated by our falling-for-30-years crime rates.

If kids don't have after school programs, they get in trouble.

When parents have to work 2-3 jobs, kids grow up without proper attention and things "slip by".

When a kid has a choice between working all summer 8 hours a day cleaning poop off of walls at McDonalds and walking away with 3500 dollars, or working 1 hour a day at the beach selling drugs and making 3500 in a week, it creates a problem.

People who don't have anything to loose certainly act like they don't. Our jails are full of them. We took it upon ourselves in Canada to make sure more people graduated high school - and crime fell. People with jobs are less likely to be criminals.

Just a few off the top of my head. Steven can probably post a epic novel on this subject.

Prevention is 3-4 times cheaper than mopping up after the party - and nobody gets killed, hurt or robbed in the process. Like I mentioned previously I am a victim of a very serious violent crime that took years from my life. I don't care how long the person get "locked up for" after the fact, it doesn't make a difference to me. I would have rather not been a victim in the first place.

[Glacier]

If we invest more on incarceration and less on crime prevention in the way of treatment of those problems that make up the majority of causes for said imprisonment then we are helping the problem to grow.

Sorry, I haven't been paying close attention. Which crime prevention programs that are being axed?

[NAB]

Social programs have been shown time in/time out to counter crime, as demonstrated by our falling-for-30-years crime rates.

If kids don't have after school programs, they get in trouble.

When parents have to work 2-3 jobs, kids grow up without proper attention and things "slip by".

When a kid has a choice between working all summer 8 hours a day cleaning poop off of walls at McDonalds and walking away with 3500 dollars, or working 1 hour a day at the beach selling drugs and making 3500 in a week, it creates a problem.

People who don't have anything to loose certainly act like they don't. Our jails are full of them. We took it upon ourselves in Canada to make sure more people graduated high school - and crime fell. People with jobs are less likely to be criminals.

Just a few off the top of my head. Steven can probably post a epic novel on this subject.

Prevention is 3-4 times cheaper than mopping up after the party - and nobody gets killed, hurt or robbed in the process. Like I mentioned previously I am a victim of a very serious violent crime that took years from my life. I don't care how long the person get "locked up for" after the fact, it doesn't make a difference to me. I would have rather not been a victim in the first place.

Just to clarify something we have discussed many times in other threads about that first point bago. It is very misleading to make such a general statement. Yes, some types of crime rates have fallen, but others have increased, in many cases to a magnitude of "out of control". And there is little question in my mind that problem relates mainly to just what you point out, the growth and ease with which criminals can profit from getting involved with illicit drugs, and the growth in serious crime associated with it.

Nab

[Bagotricks]

Just to clarify something we have discussed many times in other threads about that first point bago. It is very misleading to make such a general statement. Yes, some types of crime rates have fallen, but others have increased, in many cases to a magnitude of "out of control". And there is little question in my mind that problem relates mainly to just what you point out, the growth and ease with which criminals can profit from getting involved with illicit drugs, and the growth in serious crime associated with it.

Nab

I'd hate to do this to you, but we have pointed out the Stats Can crime rates many times.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/crime-canada/

Id like to hear what you interpret "out of control" out of those stats.

Drug offenses rose by 10% - but the majority had to do with marijuana. 75,000+ marijuana offenses (56,000 for simple possession!), and 16,718 *all other* drug offenses. This new crime bill will effective jail alot of potheads, given the mandatory minimums and police "priorites" in term of drug enforcement, which you dont think will be a huge police priority but the number suggest otherwise. I wonder when the last time you were attacked by a grow op or a pothead that we can classify this 10% rise in drug offenses as "out of control"?

That is of course ignoring the whole argument of why prohibition is a failure and we will always see increases in drug "crime" so long as prohibition remains in effect. It is a license for crooks to print money, at the cost to our lowest members of society. The patsies go to jail, Mr.Big makes the money and we keep drugs illegal so the cops have a 55% increased workload. Round and round we go.

If we ignore marijuana arrests lets say - and focus on the 2% rise in youth and "other" crime - how can that be viewed as "out of control".

Again I hate to drop facts on you in this one, but what is "out of control"? Unreported crime?

Child porn crime "increased" but lets not forget a 16 year old "sexting" a 15 year old is considered a child porn offense and it can be viewed as a good thing that we are getting more cops on the internet to find pedos, hence increasing he reported cases. Instead of 10 cops on pedo duty we have 20 - and 2000 on marijuana patrol! I guess we have to start somewhere?

One oddity that I found was "assault of a police officer" - a 45% increase. From what I understand if you spit, cuss out or generally resist arrest at a protest you will be charged with assault of a police officer. I don't think there is much money in picking fights with cops so that increase I cant really explain, but perhaps a erosion of respect in the last few years might have something to do with it. Most people do not respect the police for enforcing unjust laws, like drug laws, which leads to a general lack of respect in society for the work they do. Just a guess.

[Smurf]

Bagotricks

NAB wrote:
Just to clarify something we have discussed many times in other threads about that first point bago. It is very misleading to make such a general statement. Yes, some types of crime rates have fallen, but others have increased, in many cases to a magnitude of "out of control". And there is little question in my mind that problem relates mainly to just what you point out, the growth and ease with which criminals can profit from getting involved with illicit drugs, and the growth in serious crime associated with it.

Nab

I'd hate to do this to you, but we have pointed out the Stats Can crime rates many times.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/crime-canada/

Id like to hear what you interpret "out of control" out of those stats.

Drug offenses rose by 10% - but the majority had to do with marijuana. 75,000+ marijuana offenses (56,000 for simple possession!), and 16,718 *all other* drug offenses. This new crime bill will effective jail alot of potheads, given the mandatory minimums and police "priorites" in term of drug enforcement, which you dont think will be a huge police priority but the number suggest otherwise. I wonder when the last time you were attacked by a grow op or a pothead that we can classify this 10% rise in drug offenses as "out of control"?

That is of course ignoring the whole argument of why prohibition is a failure and we will always see increases in drug "crime" so long as prohibition remains in effect. It is a license for crooks to print money, at the cost to our lowest members of society. The patsies go to jail, Mr.Big makes the money and we keep drugs illegal so the cops have a 55% increased workload. Round and round we go.

If we ignore marijuana arrests lets say - and focus on the 2% rise in youth and "other" crime - how can that be viewed as "out of control".

Again I hate to drop facts on you in this one, but what is "out of control"? Unreported crime?

Child porn crime "increased" but lets not forget a 16 year old "sexting" a 15 year old is considered a child porn offense and it can be viewed as a good thing that we are getting more cops on the internet to find pedos, hence increasing he reported cases. Instead of 10 cops on pedo duty we have 20 - and 2000 on marijuana patrol! I guess we have to start somewhere?

One oddity that I found was "assault of a police officer" - a 45% increase. From what I understand if you spit, cuss out or generally resist arrest at a protest you will be charged with assault of a police officer. I don't think there is much money in picking fights with cops so that increase I cant really explain, but perhaps a erosion of respect in the last few years might have something to do with it. Most people do not respect the police for enforcing unjust laws, like drug laws, which leads to a general lack of respect in society for the work they do. Just a guess.[/quote]

That's one problem that I see a lot. People blaming the police. The police do not write the laws. They just enforce them. That is the job they are paid for. Why would they loose someones respect or why would someone be mad at them for doing their job. And In most cases the person is guilty. Just because someone doesn't agree with a law doesn't mean it is no longer a law and an officer doesn't need to do his job and enforce it.

[NAB]

I suspect soemwhere in there there is a comment from you smurf. I'm just not sure at this point who is saying what..

Nab