The truth about missing aboriginal woman.

[Donald G]

To Madhue ...

By all means as long as we can deal in terms of the real world origin and cyclic perpetuation of the lack of self respect and feeling of worthlessness that comes from child abuse.

And can agree that that is a significan part of the reason that women, including aboriginal women, end up in a lifestyle that makes them susceptable to being further abused and sometimes killed.

[Poindexter]

I do have to agree with you Smurf, we do need to help prevent these tragedies from happening, but how?

I want to be clear that I am not saying all missing aboriginal women were prostitutes but if we want to do something to protect a large number of those that end up on the streets we can start by legalizing prostitution. While this may or may not be the life they'd have chosen for themselves (history of abuse, neglect, homelessness), to treat them any different from any other occupation puts them in harms way and makes them easy targets for predators.

[Madhue]

By all means as long as we can deal in terms of the real world origin and cyclic perpetuation of the lack of self respect and feeling of worthlessness that comes from child abuse.

how about you lay these terms out to be clear.

And can agree that that is a significan part of the reason that women, including aboriginal women, end up in a lifestyle that makes them susceptable to being further abused and sometimes killed.

No we most certainly will not agree on this. Your comment is nothing more than the antiquated argument that if women wear certain cloths they invite the rapists to rape them... rather suggesting that men should accountable for their actions. Blame the victim not the abuser.... which is a fallacy as we all know.

[Donald G]

We are already off on the wrong foot Madhue ...

I am talking about the psycholgical effects of women of almost any age as a result of being sexually abused as a child or a child during their formative years.

Clothing has little to nothing to do with it except that many sexually abused women tend to wear clothing that displays their sexual appeal to men because they are raised to believe that their value as a person is attached to their breasts and their vagina.

You have already identified to me that you do not know much about the cycle of child sexual abuse, and its causes, effects and consequences.

[Madhue]

We are already off on the wrong foot Madhue ...

I am talking about the psycholgical effects of women of almost any age as a result of being sexually abused as a child or a child during their formative years.

I see.... I didn't realize you were an expert in the field, what are your credentials?

Clothing has little to nothing to do with it except that many sexually abused women tend to wear clothing that displays their sexual appeal to men because they are raised to believe that their value as a person is attached to their breasts and their vagina.

I believe what you are referring to is called overt sexalization, it doesn't apply to just a female demographic BTW its also been noted in men, and not just gay men in case you're drawn to that conclusion.

there's a wide spectrum of issues we may see in children that we see in children, from disassociation, displaying aspects of PTSD, become abusers themselves, social isolation, attachment disorders a whole mess of other things... the human being is a very complex. I'm guessing you forgot that.

You have already identified to me that you do not know much about the cycle of child sexual abuse, and its causes, effects and consequences.

please enlighten me.

[Donald G]

To Madhue ...

I took two years off to study child abuse both at University and on the streets. I used to teach police officers, teachers and social workers how to recognize the signs of child sexual abuse and get children to disclose.

I was one of the first RCMP officers in the province to identify the significance of child abuse and the cost to the police, the courts, the penal system, human resources and the quality of life of untold numbers of families.

I am not saying that you know nothing about the prevalance, mechanics and effects of child abuse, but if you do then now is the time to speak up. If not please do not waste my time with something you might read or heard from a person who was not a victim of child sexual abuse or assault.

As I have said before I defy anyone to find a victim who will refute anything I have said about child sexual abuse and the effects of child sexual abuse.

Should we start over or discontinue the conversation ??

I say that not to blow my own horn but to try to avoid talking about peripheral issues not directly related to abuse, such as those in your last two posts. There is far too much absolute bullsh't running around in pubic regarding child sexual abuse.

[Donald G]

Basic Child Sexual Abuse 1 - 6

1. During the 1990s front line research identified that by the age of 18 one girl in four would have been sexually abused in one form or another. Some headway has been made in Canada so the incidence may have changed since then.

2. The average pediphile abuses approvimately 85 (male and/or female) victims during their lifetime.

3. Most offenders are themselves victims of child sexual assault similar to that perpetuated on them. That does not mean that that all victims will offend but that almost all offenders have been victims.

4. Almost all child sexual abuse offenders are either a member of the victims immediate family, a member of the victims extended family or a friend of the victims immediate or extended family.

5. The "stranger" who is an offender is the rare exception to the rule when it comes to children.

6. The most dangerous offender is a male child during his formative years who has been sexually abused by a female over a period of time where being degraded and suffering violence has been an integral part of the abuse. Most mass murderers like
the one at the pig farm usually come from that background. I have never been able to determine Olson's background but I suspect it would be similarly psychopathic as well.

[Madhue]

To Madhue ...

I took two years off to study child abuse both at University and on the streets. I used to teach police officers, teachers and social workers how to recognize the signs of child sexual abuse and get children to disclose.

excellent I appreciate your candor, quid pro quo.... my background is in Corrections, Forensics and Psycology, addictsions and working high risk sex offenders and service a number of First Nations communities and Freindship Centers in BC. My primary focus in children and youth. I'm please to hear you took off to attend education outside a Police setting, I find most Police training to be myopic and rushed.

I am not saying that you know nothing about the prevalance, mechanics and effects of child abuse, but if you do then now is the time to speak up. If not please do not waste my time with something you might read or heard from a person who was not a victim of child sexual abuse or assault.

I think this is in my wheelhouse and should be able to keep up... I'm also glad we can use big words.

As I have said before I defy anyone to find a victim who will refute anything I have said about child sexual abuse and the effects of child sexual abuse.

I think that's what I'm hear for.

Should we start over or discontinue the conversation ??

I think we are good to start, now I've agreed to you terms, here's mine... Seeing as you are educated person this should be no issue.

1) you submit your work as full and complete. You defend your work much like defending a dissertation, I'll expect sources quotes from those who support you.

2) you allow me to vet, your summation, sources, flawed research and point out paradoxes and juxtapositions

3) recommend you create another thread and ask moderators if we can make that our sandbox


You ok with that recourse? Or should we discontinue our conversation?

[Donald G]

I will skip the part about the numerous ways that child abuse starts and carries on and the feelings of the child sexual assaut victim while in the home including why "the secret" is kept at all costs. VERY BRIEFLY the next NORMAL steps for a victim of child sexual abuse are as follows; 8 to 13.

8. The mother who has been victimized is often, for a number of identified reasons, attracted to an offender because he provides the "home environment" that she grew up in and accepts as being "normal". That is not to say that all victims WILL choose a mate who is an offender by it is common to find the two linked together.

9. If a previously abused mother suspects that her husband is abusing her daughter she finds herself in an impossible situation.
Her worth as a mother, a lover, a wife and the economic stability of she and her daughter are all injeapordy. The only out is to convince herself that she is imagining things.

10. By the time that the daughter is old enough to realize what has been going on the abuse has likely been repeated numberous times. She feels dirty and degraded beyond all else. Unworthy of any good things in life, including relationships.

Especially since there are positive feelings associated to being the "chosen one" and with the sexual act itself. She feels responsible for what happened, which compounds her feelings of guilt, and she believes that there is something very different about her that caused the onset of the abuse. She feels that she does not deserve to live the lives that other people have and starts to measure her self worth in terms of her abily to provide sex to others.

11, She starts to use drugs ar booze to dull her pain. She is not comfortable in forming a relationship wih a caring man because, in her mind, she does not deserve it.

12. If she does not get help at that point she will begin the sometimes long and sometimes short road to being a prostitute living on the street and using drugs to dull the pain. Help MUST include a full discosure and treatment or counselling adequate to helping her realize that NONE of what happened as her fault. She is not dirty. She is not degraded. The offender and the offender alone is responsible for what took place.

13. Sometimes being able to switch from the emotional assessment to the situation to the intellectual assessment is not possible and the life on the street cotinues until sickness or murder eliminates the pain.

[Donald G]

To Madhue ...

I am afraid that you will have to settle for what I learned from victims and offenders over the 27 years that I dealt with both offenders and victims. As you are likely aware, in BC until Linda Halliday wrote the book called "The Silent Scream" there was little attention being paid to child sexual abuse because it was a "family" or "social" issue rather than a criminal issue that left "walking dead" on our streets. When I started human resources workers refused to tell me of "problem" homes because of privacy concerns, I estimate that I have sent over 100 offenders (previous victims) to jail and easily spoken with over 1000 victims regarding child abuse. Many on the basis that they give me their information as a means of understsnding victims and offenders so as to be beter able to identify both.

Like policemen, psychologists and those in the Justice System who have no specialized child sexual assault training are no differen than any other person lacking knowledge. The prison system is full of the residue from child sexual assault, especially armed robbers, pedophiles, and more violent sex offenders. I once identified the victims of a school teacher by going down the juvenile probation list and picking out the children who were or had been in his class. Juveniles lightng fires also.

Being effective at drug and gang work has many facets.

[Donald G]

IMO child sexual abuse is at the very foundation of women choosing or ending up in a high risk lifestyle that leads to places lie the Pig Farm. I see no reason to change threads.

[Madhue]

IMO child sexual abuse is at the very foundation of women choosing or ending up in a high risk lifestyle that leads to places lie the Pig Farm. I see no reason to change threads.

and its this claim here is why I'd disagree with you... It's probably best then you not accept my challenge. I will ask you then to substantiate your claim... The one bolded.. If true others must have come to the same conclusion and published it.

[Donald G]

To Madhue ...

WADR I have no intention of entering into a discussion with a person who does not accept the reality that being abused during their formative years was the main cause of the women being at the Pig Farm and that the actions of Willy Picton were a direct result of mental challenges mixed with severe child abuse. That is like someone requesting studies that prove it is daylight in Canada at twelve noon.

I am not sure that your having constantly dealt with male "victims turned offenders" over the years in he jail system gives a balanced approach to understanding victimization in women. Specifically the victimization that led to the murders at the Pig Farm.

I once received a disclosure from a 14 year old who was receiving counselling from TWO psychiatrists (husband and wife) as a result of self destructive behaviour incuding attempted suicide. At the time I interviewed him he had been in counselling for three months. Neither psychiatrist had ever related his behaviour to being sexually assaulted by his male teacher. When it comes to child abuse academic theory and qualifications are NOT evidence of knowledge.

The young man subsequently sent me a picture of a seal pup with its head poking out of the ice on which he had written "thanks for getting me out of hell". AS A RESULT OF HIS DISCLOSURE he was able to begin to understand that he had nothing to feel guilty about and was able to get his life back on track to the extent possible. I found such academically qualified but unqualified ability in real life to be very common among "professionals" that had not taken it on themselves to learn the realities associated to child abuse. It is a very specialized field.

[Donald G]

Denying the strong relationship between the women who ended up in their high risk lifestyle and lifestyle that led to the Pig Farm and abuse beginning during their childhood and formative years is to regress to denying the theory of evolution.

[Donald G]

To Madhue ...

On checking the internet I find there is a lot more information available today in relation to the incidence and effects of child sexual abuse than there used to be. One specific NATIVE example that basically parallels what I have said can be found at;

http://littlewarriors.ca/about/help/inf ... -research/

The only unclarified part is that there is no differentiation made in the study between street level prostitution and other prostitution. Almost 100% of street level prositutes are there because of child or formative years sexual abuse. They should be viewed as showing the more extreme effects of their abuse. IMO the costs to society identified in the thread regarding child sexual abuse abuse are if anything LOW.

Many more articles can be found by running " Prostitution and Child Sexual Abuse" on Google

We are never too old to learn and re-examine our beliefs.