Do carbon taxes really work?

Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby Merry » Apr 25th, 2018, 11:49 am

Glacier wrote:By the feds own admission, the carbon tax is really just a starting point. According to the data, they need to raise the gas tax to around $4/litre to actually stave off the catastrophic warming they keep warning us about.

With gas at that level, inflation would be through the roof and our economy would be a mess.

Is that what these eco warriors really want? Have they thought this through?
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby rustled » Apr 25th, 2018, 12:26 pm

I think the strategy right now is to give the appearance of doing something. In her interview with Evan Solomon, our minister Catherine McKenna explained the importance of this. This is a consistent theme with her ministry.

Here's what the auditor general's spring report has to say about this ministry:

What we found about…
National leadership
Overall, we found that Environment and Climate Change Canada did not provide effective leadership and did not effectively coordinate the actions required to achieve Canada’s 2020 biodiversity targets. The Department focused its leadership efforts on broad administrative activities, such as representing Canada at international meetings, creating national committees, and coordinating national reports. The Department worked with federal, provincial, and territorial partners to identify specific actions and initiatives that could support Canada’s biodiversity targets but did not analyze whether these actions and initiatives would be sufficient to achieve the targets. Furthermore, the Department did not compile comprehensive information to report on performance and progress toward the 2020 biodiversity targets.

These findings matter because without strong national leadership, Canada’s actions may not be effective in meeting the country’s targets by 2020. An integrated national approach ensures that actions to conserve biodiversity are coordinated across the country, that progress is tracked, and that any required corrections or improvements can be identified and implemented in time to achieve the biodiversity targets by 2020.
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/Engli ... 43004.html

The government seems unable to understand the difference between merely giving the appearance of "taking action", and actually identifying actions which can be measured for performance and progress. Even where the likelihood of positive outcomes as a direct result of these actions can be expressed simply and succinctly. Even when the goal is as tangible and measurable and obvious as, for example, the survival of the Selkirk caribou.

If they're unable to manage where the impacts will be known over the very short term (and changing the outcome involves taking very real responsibility), why should we have the slightest bit of faith they are capable of managing with less tangible targets?

So instead, it is all about giving the appearance of doing something. This is far easier than getting to the bottom of what action to take and how to assess whether or not those actions are achieving the expected outcome (in this case, whether or not carbon taxes are effecting specific and measurable change on the global climate).

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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby BGrigg07 » Apr 25th, 2018, 2:30 pm

rustled wrote:
BGrigg07 wrote:Oh come now, taxing and fining people isn't limited to the first world! Every government does it in some way or another. It's how the world goes round. Or would you rather pay tolls every 50 feet to use a road or sidewalk? That's how it used to be done... Somebody has to pay for hospitals, roadways, schools, police, fire, etc. etc. and it's better if all of us pay our fair share.

I'm just pointing out that in reality there is no actual difference between a fine and a tax.

I'm not a fan of Carbon taxes, and I don't think they work to reduce people's consumption of fossil fuels, any more than income tax reduces employment...

Gee. Are those really my only two options, pay a carbon tax or pay a toll every 50 feet to use a road or sidewalk? Heavens, how did the government manage to avoid all that tolling back in the day when we didn't have carbon taxes? I know I shouldn't resort to sarcasm, but honestly, that is (IMO) a truly lame attempt to justify them.

I have no problem paying the many taxes I've always paid to support infrastructure and social programs.

I do have a problem with the carbon tax, which is currently (as has been pointed out by many here) strictly a tax grab foisted on everyone under the guise of "saving the planet". To many of us, there is still quite a difference between the reasonable taxation we've always paid through all of our energy purchases (and all of the purchases any energy is required to supply (hint: everything)), and the carbon tax, which was introduced with the stated intention of "curb your behaviour or you, the user, will pay the consequences", making it far more a "fine" than a "tax".

Unlike liquor and tobacco "sin" taxes, which are applied to non-necessities and paid by those who choose to "play", the purported reason for the carbon tax was strictly to curb behaviour. Behaviour like simply maintaining a reasonable temperature in a home in a first world country with abundant access to relatively clean energy.

The jury's out on whether or not Canada's carbon taxes are adequately punitive to significantly curb many people's behaviours, but some of us prefer to be vocal before the jury says "these carbon taxes are far too low to work!" and the government feels they have full social licence to jack 'em up to a more punitive level. If curbing behaviour is the intent, understanding what the carbon "tax" truly is will help everyone keep this in perspective.


Road taxes have been a part of the price of gas in BC for decades, just about when the Socreds stopped taking tolls over just about every major bridge and tunnel in the province. This is historical fact. I'm not trying to justify taxes and fines, I'm only being a realist about them.

Like it or not, someone needs to pay for the infrastructure, and that's thee and me.

And as I've already pointed out there is NO difference between a tax and a fine, both are ways the government gets their pound of flesh from us.

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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby Glacier » Apr 25th, 2018, 2:52 pm

The other thing is that vehicles are far more efficient than they were 20 years ago, so the government is losing huge money because of cars using less fuel. As we go electric more and more, the government will either have to tax gas to oblivion or start tolling highways like crazy.
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby rustled » Apr 25th, 2018, 4:21 pm

BGrigg07 wrote:Road taxes have been a part of the price of gas in BC for decades, just about when the Socreds stopped taking tolls over just about every major bridge and tunnel in the province. This is historical fact. I'm not trying to justify taxes and fines, I'm only being a realist about them.

Like it or not, someone needs to pay for the infrastructure, and that's thee and me.

And as I've already pointed out there is NO difference between a tax and a fine, both are ways the government gets their pound of flesh from us.

Of course they are. Sigh.

Were those road taxes introduced for the sole purpose of getting folk to drive fewer miles? Nope.

Were the existing road taxes removed and replaced with a carbon tax? Nope.

Were the carbon taxes introduced for the sole purpose of getting people to reduce the amount of energy we use daily, including driving fewer miles? Yup.

You choose to see absolutely no difference between the road taxes and carbon taxes? That's entirely your prerogative. Just as you chose not to see the difference between income taxes (intimating I'd somehow suggested they'd been introduced on the pretext of a social engineering strategy to curb working, LOL,) and carbon taxes (which quite clearly WERE introduced as a social engineering strategy to curb energy use).

While I completely agree carbon taxes are currently being used as an equivalent in terms of getting their pound of flesh, given there's no way to prove they do what they're intended to do (result in a direct influence on the climate), the pretext on which they were introduced leaves the door wide open to ANY government claiming they MUST be hiked drastically in order to accomplish their intended result: curbing energy use as a purported means to effect direct influence on the climate.

How this plays out remains to be seen. Nevertheless, their intent is punitive. As is their consequence.
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby BGrigg07 » Apr 26th, 2018, 10:12 pm

rustled wrote:
BGrigg07 wrote:Road taxes have been a part of the price of gas in BC for decades, just about when the Socreds stopped taking tolls over just about every major bridge and tunnel in the province. This is historical fact. I'm not trying to justify taxes and fines, I'm only being a realist about them.

Like it or not, someone needs to pay for the infrastructure, and that's thee and me.

And as I've already pointed out there is NO difference between a tax and a fine, both are ways the government gets their pound of flesh from us.

Of course they are. Sigh.

Were those road taxes introduced for the sole purpose of getting folk to drive fewer miles? Nope.

Were the existing road taxes removed and replaced with a carbon tax? Nope.

Were the carbon taxes introduced for the sole purpose of getting people to reduce the amount of energy we use daily, including driving fewer miles? Yup.

You choose to see absolutely no difference between the road taxes and carbon taxes? That's entirely your prerogative. Just as you chose not to see the difference between income taxes (intimating I'd somehow suggested they'd been introduced on the pretext of a social engineering strategy to curb working, LOL,) and carbon taxes (which quite clearly WERE introduced as a social engineering strategy to curb energy use).

While I completely agree carbon taxes are currently being used as an equivalent in terms of getting their pound of flesh, given there's no way to prove they do what they're intended to do (result in a direct influence on the climate), the pretext on which they were introduced leaves the door wide open to ANY government claiming they MUST be hiked drastically in order to accomplish their intended result: curbing energy use as a purported means to effect direct influence on the climate.

How this plays out remains to be seen. Nevertheless, their intent is punitive. As is their consequence.


You are completely, let me say that again, COMPLETELY misunderstanding me. I've already pointed out that Taxes are fines for doing good. That's the Carbon Tax. I've already pointed out that the Carbon Tax won't reduce people's use of cars just like Income Tax reduces employment (IE: they don't). I ask you, if your income tax went up 10%, would you stop working? If fuel prices go up $0.10 per litre, do you stop driving? Not likely!

The entire point of Carbon Taxes is to generate more revenue for the government.The only point of fines is to generate more money for the government, as in fines don't stop (most) people from breaking the law. Any more that the death penalty stopped people from killing other people.

Let me try to say this so simple that even YOU understand:

THE GOVERNMENT WANTS ALL OF YOUR MONEY! Get it now? They don't have any other means of making money other than leaching off the tax-payer. They'll use any form of persuasion they can in order to extract it from your wallet without us resorting to revolution to prevent them. Call taxes on booze and cigs a "sin tax", or call extra taxes on gasoline and heating oil "carbon tax" or "social engineering", it doesn't matter what you call it, they are desperate for the money.

I don't actually mind paying a percentage to ensure things like roads, hospitals, courts, schools etc. But I'm not going to swallow their BS about what a Carbon Tax is for.
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby rustled » Apr 26th, 2018, 11:24 pm

BGrigg07 wrote:You are completely, let me say that again, COMPLETELY misunderstanding me. I've already pointed out that Taxes are fines for doing good. That's the Carbon Tax. I've already pointed out that the Carbon Tax won't reduce people's use of cars just like Income Tax reduces employment (IE: they don't). I ask you, if your income tax went up 10%, would you stop working? If fuel prices go up $0.10 per litre, do you stop driving? Not likely!

The entire point of Carbon Taxes is to generate more revenue for the government.The only point of fines is to generate more money for the government, as in fines don't stop (most) people from breaking the law. Any more that the death penalty stopped people from killing other people.

Let me try to say this so simple that even YOU understand:

THE GOVERNMENT WANTS ALL OF YOUR MONEY! Get it now? They don't have any other means of making money other than leaching off the tax-payer. They'll use any form of persuasion they can in order to extract it from your wallet without us resorting to revolution to prevent them. Call taxes on booze and cigs a "sin tax", or call extra taxes on gasoline and heating oil "carbon tax" or "social engineering", it doesn't matter what you call it, they are desperate for the money.

I don't actually mind paying a percentage to ensure things like roads, hospitals, courts, schools etc. But I'm not going to swallow their BS about what a Carbon Tax is for.

Wow. You seem to feel the primary issue here is my personal inability to understand the vitally important point you have been trying to make. You figure the government want's all of my money? Thanks for making sure I got the message!

Taxes are fines for doing good? Interesting theory. I see taxes as our proportional contribution to the maintenance and good governance of our greater community (although all governments seem utterly incapable of spending that money wisely), while I see fines as a punitive measure intended to curb behaviours. Me, I see quite a difference in the intent behind "tax" versus "fine", and because the carbon tax was implemented with the purported intent of curbing behaviour, I see it as more "fine" than "tax". But of course I don't expect everyone to share my perspective on those concepts. C'est la vie.

We can, of course, simply ignore how all governments use the carbon tax as just another tax we pay regardless of outcome. Nevertheless, in my opinion, it is best we all retain full awareness of how the government justified their implementation of the carbon tax: as a punitive measure purportedly to manage our behaviour, with an end goal of manipulating the climate, despite their total inability to measure or monitor how this tax/fine/manipulation actually impacts climate. With McKenna waxing eloquent on how her government is "taking action" to "save the planet", perhaps it's about time we start calling them on their "think of the children" b.s. and hold them to account.

Or not.

Just to be clear, I don't expect everyone to agree with my perspective on this.
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby rustled » Apr 27th, 2018, 1:24 pm

LOL:

Minister McKenna peddles the tedious claim that corporations see killing fossil fuels as an investment opportunity in “clean growth.” She cites the California-based tech firm Salesforce, claiming that it had plans to achieve net-zero carbon emissions by 2050, but “through rigorous innovation has already reached its goal.” In fact, the company reached its goal simply by purchasing carbon credits, which hardly amounts to “rigorous innovation.”

Salesforce describes itself as a “customer relationship management company.” It doesn’t manufacture anything tangible, but it does use a lot of energy to provide computing power. Although it boasts of facilities decked with virtuous LED lighting and low-flow water fixtures, its data centres have trebled their energy use, and emissions, in the past two years. Their single largest power source is… coal.
http://business.financialpost.com/opini ... ct-crusade

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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby ninetyninepct » May 1st, 2018, 4:53 pm

We can all support Trudeau and barbie by doing our bit. People cause pollution just by living and traveling.

1. Restrict LEGAL migration just below the point of population replacement.

2. Populations consume stuff, therefore we need to reduce our consumption of stuff Made in Canada. Stuff Made in Canada obviously pollutes, so it's a no-brainer to buy stuff made somewhere else. A reduced population means less pollution.

Could this be the actual Liberal aim?
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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby butthead » May 6th, 2018, 7:22 am

well the scientist got the warming all wrong.
they got the carbon tax wrong.
we pay a garbage tax as stated for spray paint milk jugs tires and everything else under the sun.

must go to show you just how tapped out the gov must be
to be taxing the living *bleep* out of everything
i am sorry but i am taped out.
stay out of my back pocket
your carbon tax has done nothing to improve things except your coffers

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Re: Do carbon taxes really work?

Postby Brushy Bill » Feb 8th, 2019, 7:14 am

Bumping this one so the 'not a scam' thread is not alone
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