Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby seewood » Jan 22nd, 2019, 9:35 am

Sales plummeted from 695 Nissan Leaf's in August to 10 in November after subsidies canceled.

https://driving.ca/nissan/leaf/auto-new ... ntive-axed

I find this interesting as the Provincial government claims they will save perhaps 1 billion in 4 years. That is a chunk of change for subsidies.

Wonder how the other electric vehicle sales are now in Ontario ?
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby motokelowna1 » Jan 22nd, 2019, 9:53 am

You might as well cancel rebates the Government won't get any tax money from fuel excise.
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby JagXKR » Jan 22nd, 2019, 10:41 am

Where are all the self sanctimonious left wing eco nutbars now that they have no one to pay for their messed up dogma? I guess if the government or the Tides Foundation or some other entity is not paying them for their "save the planet" BS then their religion is no longer valid to practice. This is very telling of the mindset of the wack job eco terrorists.
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.

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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby Rider59 » Jan 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am

JagXKR wrote:Where are all the self sanctimonious left wing eco nutbars now that they have no one to pay for their messed up dogma? I guess if the government or the Tides Foundation or some other entity is not paying them for their "save the planet" BS then their religion is no longer valid to practice. This is very telling of the mindset of the wack job eco terrorists.



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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby OKkayak » Jan 22nd, 2019, 11:20 am

So, the eco-types do have a price where it's not worth saving the earth? :up:
Last edited by OKkayak on Jan 22nd, 2019, 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby ninetyninepct » Jan 22nd, 2019, 11:24 am

Most EV's in Canada have been subsidized by other taxpayers. That means we all own a small piece of every EV. There is no law banning us from checking the strength of our door or headlight or tail light, so go for it. Current owners of EV's have accepted welfare. Government subsidies are disgusting. Our money belongs to us, not politicians, and they have to remember that. Remind them with calls and letters as well as at the polling booth.
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby hobbyguy » Jan 22nd, 2019, 5:52 pm

No argument from me on cancelling EV subsidies.

Why should ordinary folks subsidize those that can afford a Tesla ($47k for the cheapest model)?
Anyone but Scheer - career pols are know nothings.

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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby Omnitheo » Jan 22nd, 2019, 10:44 pm

hobbyguy wrote:No argument from me on cancelling EV subsidies.

Why should ordinary folks subsidize those that can afford a Tesla ($47k for the cheapest model)?


to expedite economy of scale. With rebates it helps bring price down, allowing more people to purchase them, which allows the company to up production, which then brings the cost of the individual item down. As production ramps up, prices go down, and more people are able to afford electric cars. It's a stepping stone to cheap electric vehicles for the masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby jimmy4321 » Jan 23rd, 2019, 4:59 am

While i drive a gas guzzling truck for my needs , i do recycle everything and try to be energy efficient with lights, heat , insulation, windows etc with my home among other things in my life.
Does that make me an eco nutbar?
I don't believe it'll happen but i would welcome any full size truck like the F150 or whatever high volume sold vehicle that were mostly if not fully electric and yeah it probably take some gov rebate to get those vehicles in the average Joe's driveway till prices came down.
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby countmeout » Jan 23rd, 2019, 10:05 am

Omnitheo wrote:to expedite economy of scale. With rebates it helps bring price down, allowing more people to purchase them, which allows the company to up production, which then brings the cost of the individual item down. As production ramps up, prices go down, and more people are able to afford electric cars. It's a stepping stone to cheap electric vehicles for the masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale


Avocados are good for health. Link below to how good they are:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/12-proven-benefits-of-avocado

Subsidies help lower the cost:
https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/reference/government-intervention-producer-subsidies

I call for the government to make subsidies for avocados because they are good for humans and the environment. Once we get the price down to the price of an apple, people are sure to switch over because I know best for all. Then once the demand for avocados are up, the subsidy can be removed and people will be forced to buy them because they will have replaced those outdated bad apples!

^^^ Enjoy my sarcasm.

oh and wait!
https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/why-avocados-are-so-expensive.html/

Just because the demand has gone up for avocados, the price is increasing! (luckily not because of subsidies haha)
It seems this reason is because they are hard to produce. Avocados and EV's have something in common! Issues with supply of components and international trade. Then there is the lack of appeal to the general public which will never increase because of how easy gasoline vehicles work. The subsidies were tried, they failed, now move on to something better to really help save the planet.

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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby Jlabute » Jan 23rd, 2019, 10:48 am

Omnitheo wrote:
hobbyguy wrote:No argument from me on cancelling EV subsidies.

Why should ordinary folks subsidize those that can afford a Tesla ($47k for the cheapest model)?


to expedite economy of scale. With rebates it helps bring price down, allowing more people to purchase them, which allows the company to up production, which then brings the cost of the individual item down. As production ramps up, prices go down, and more people are able to afford electric cars. It's a stepping stone to cheap electric vehicles for the masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale


The problem with Tesla is not that they lack orders, they can't scale up production if their life depended on it. Now people are cancelling orders because they can't deliver, laid off 3600 of their social justice work force, causing their stock to drop to $290. The current electric vehicles will always be too expensive until new battery tech not based on rare earth elements and lithium comes along, so this restricts a large segment of the population from owning any EV. They are all > $45K for anything 1/2 useful. Tesla also has a $920M debt to pay come March 1st. As for Tesla, since they have passed 200,000 units sold, those vehicles are no longer eligible for rebates thank goodness. I'm with HG on this one, I'm not helping Catherine McKenna pay for her $112,000 Tesla (although I am sure I already have).

The cheapest Tesla model 3 is now $44,000US after slashing $2000 from all vehicles to make them more attractive with dwindling rebates. So the cheapest Tesla is $58800 CAN, plus all your typical fees, so above $65,000 really. I'd probably stick with the Chevy Bolt (whose sales have slumped by 41%)... but those are hard to find. Realistically, I will wait until the battery technology is refreshed rather than having a car run from hundreds of 'A' sized lithium batteries.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/2/18165014/tesla-prices-cut-model-3-record-car-production
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby seewood » Jan 23rd, 2019, 11:24 am

Jlabute wrote:So the cheapest Tesla is $58800 CAN, plus all your typical fees, so above $65,000 really. I'd probably stick with the Chevy Bolt (whose sales have slumped by 41%)... but those are hard to find. Realistically, I will wait until the battery technology is refreshed rather than having a car run from hundreds of 'A' sized lithium batteries.


I Love my Golf R. I can get a 600 kms hwy range, stop for 5 minutes to fill and off again. I don't have to worry about battery power with the electric seats on, lights on, wipers on. Goes like snot if required and handles the same.
All in price was just over $50 G and I'd do it again in a heartbeat before electric car and range anxiety.
Son was interested in an electric but after I showed him some info, I think he is leaning towards a hybrid now.

Subsidies should be a non starter in my opinion in purchasing vehicles. If they are good and priced right and what the public wants, they should sell just fine. That is why GM is closing Oshawa, the cars there are not selling, so the plant is closing.
Would be nice if Tesla opened up a production plant there but I still see an issue in obtaining enough rare earth raw materials for all those batteries required for the potential production capacity of that plant.
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby OKkayak » Jan 23rd, 2019, 11:52 am

Omnitheo wrote:
hobbyguy wrote:No argument from me on cancelling EV subsidies.

Why should ordinary folks subsidize those that can afford a Tesla ($47k for the cheapest model)?


to expedite economy of scale. With rebates it helps bring price down, allowing more people to purchase them, which allows the company to up production, which then brings the cost of the individual item down. As production ramps up, prices go down, and more people are able to afford electric cars. It's a stepping stone to cheap electric vehicles for the masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

This isn't always the case. If the demand is there, production goes up, costs go down but consumer prices go up as does the companies profits.
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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby hobbyguy » Jan 23rd, 2019, 12:31 pm

Omnitheo wrote:
hobbyguy wrote:No argument from me on cancelling EV subsidies.

Why should ordinary folks subsidize those that can afford a Tesla ($47k for the cheapest model)?


to expedite economy of scale. With rebates it helps bring price down, allowing more people to purchase them, which allows the company to up production, which then brings the cost of the individual item down. As production ramps up, prices go down, and more people are able to afford electric cars. It's a stepping stone to cheap electric vehicles for the masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale


Nonsense. Elon Musk and many others are "subsidy mining".

EVs have sufficient economies of scale if they are good enough. They aren't. Subsidizing EVs takes away from real progess toward vehicles that are practical for all of North America - ones like the Volt.

Plus there is an eco-bomb developing with Li-ion batteries that nobody has yet found a way to deal with. https://blog.energybrainpool.com/en/is-there-enough-lithium-to-feed-the-need-for-batteries/

"While devices that contain lithium can be recycled, there is no recycling technology capable of yielding lithium pure enough for use in new lithium ion batteries."

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

"The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction"

You will have to excuse me, but methinks that EVs based on Li-ion batteries are a poor solution to anything. Same with hydrogen fuel cells (because the hydrogen is made from natural gas). If you add up the life cycle costs of Li-ion batteries in terms of environmental damage, and CO2 - the solution, at present, is just about as bad as the problem.

EVs are a "feel good" that don't actually do a lot of overall good.

Take that subsidy money and build electrified rail systems and mass transit. Far, far better "bang for the buck".
Anyone but Scheer - career pols are know nothings.

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Re: Ontario cancels electric car rebates

Postby stuphoto » Jan 24th, 2019, 1:19 am

I wonder how many people here are driving around in a GM, Ford or Chrysler product, even though we had to bail them out 10 years ago and will never see a full return on our dollar.
https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industr ... er-3305670
If I look far enough I imagine I could find similar bailouts in pretty much all the import car companies too.
So in my opinion there is no real difference between any of us, no matter what we drive.

Hobbyguy,
I agree with you on the electric rail and transit system.
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