Gun Control

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Nedroj
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Nedroj »

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

Look at these three countries:
Germany, Norway, Sweden

Germany has a lower rate of Firearm Ownership than Sweden and Norway yet has a homicide rate of 3x-10x them.

Canada has a higher rate of firearm ownership than German yet has almost half the Homicide rate using firearms.

Look at India's stats for 2022:
They have 71 Million firearms yet only show 0.285 firearm-related death rate per 100,000
a 0.3 homicide rate
and a 0.14 Suicide rate
Attachments
India Gun Violence 2022.png
India Gun ownership.png
Other countries Gun ownership vs gun violence.png
'I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand' - Confucius
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 12:50 pm
You refuse to accept any stats that counter your argument, always deflecting by saying it's either outdated or irrelevant.
So it's not true then, when you wrote according to StatCan, Australia's and New Zealand's suicide rate was what was it.... 2.44 and 2.34 per 100,000? Take a look at those graphs you posted and tell me what it says is the current rate of suicide for those two countries......yet you went on and on and on about how right you were about those Statcan stats........until I had to use the sledgehammer to get through.......is this not true?

.....now it looks like it's about saving face.
Nedroj
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Nedroj »

foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm
Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 12:50 pm
You refuse to accept any stats that counter your argument, always deflecting by saying it's either outdated or irrelevant.
So it's not true then, when you wrote according to StatCan, Australia's and New Zealand's suicide rate was what was it.... 2.44 and 2.34 per 100,000? Take a look at those graphs you posted and tell me what it says is the current rate of suicide for those two countries......yet you went on and on and on about how right you were about those Statcan stats........until I had to use the sledgehammer to get through.......is this not true?

.....now it looks like it's about saving face.
What are you even talking about?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

AS per the link above this is the most current stats.

The firearm related Suicide rates for Australia and New Zealand are almost identical at 0.8 for Australia and 0.81 for New Zealand
The Firearm-related Death rate for Australia and New Zealand are also almost identical at 1.04 for Australia and 1.07 for New Zealand.

Yet the Firearm ownership for Australia is 14.50 and the rate of Firearm ownership in New Zealand is 26.30.

Conclusion: New Zealand has a higher rate of Gun Ownership than Australia yet they have almost identical suicide and homicide rates using firearms.

Lets compare Uruguay to Canada as they have almost exact same Gun ownership rates

Uruguay
Total Firearms (Civilian): 1.2M
Rate*: 34.70
Military Firearms: 62,130
Law Enforcement Firearms: 30,000

Canada
Total Firearms (Civilian): 12.7M
Rate*: 34.70
Military Firearms: 233,949
Law Enforcement: 103,000

Yet Uruguay has a 5x Firearm-related Death rate per 100,000 pop: 11.52 Versus Canada's 2.05
Uruguay has a Homicide rate: 4.78
Suicide Rate: 4.68

Greenland has the highest rate of Firearm-related Suicides per 100,000 pop at 16.36
Want to take a guess at their Firearm ownership rates?

Greenland
Total Firearms (Civilian): 13K
Rate*: 22.30
Military Firearms:
Law Enforcement Firearms: 300

In conclusion: Firearm ownership rates do not correlate to a higher rate of Suicide by guns or Homicides by guns.
'I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand' - Confucius
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alanjh595
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Re: Gun Control

Post by alanjh595 »

oldtrucker wrote: May 26th, 2022, 1:01 pm
Gone_Fishin wrote: May 26th, 2022, 10:44 am Why has gun violence increased since Justin Trudeau banned 1500 firearms in May 2020?

Shouldn't that ban reduce gun violence? That's what the Liberals are telling us to justify their actions.
Yup. Since 2015 firearms deaths have increased to a panic inducing 270 ish deaths from under 180 ish under Harper. Out of a country of 40 million even 1000 per year wouldn't be bad.
Where do you get those numbers from? OR are they just made up, like the last time?
Bring back the LIKE button.
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 2:43 pm
foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm

So it's not true then, when you wrote according to StatCan, Australia's and New Zealand's suicide rate was what was it.... 2.44 and 2.34 per 100,000? Take a look at those graphs you posted and tell me what it says is the current rate of suicide for those two countries......yet you went on and on and on about how right you were about those Statcan stats........until I had to use the sledgehammer to get through.......is this not true?

.....now it looks like it's about saving face.
What are you even talking about?
So you didn't write this?
Nedroj wrote:
Page 118 - "When examining firearm suicides, the Canadian rate of 3.3 per 100,000 population is similar to Australia (2.4), and New Zealand (2.5), and much lower than Finland (5.8), and the United States (7.2)."

Page 120 - "When examining firearm suicides, the Canadian rate of 3.3 per 100,000 population is similar to Australia (2.4), and New Zealand (2.5), and much lower than Finland (5.8), and the United States (7.2)."

Page 120 - "Pay attention to the last one there FIREARM SUICIDE RATES for Canada 3.3. The firearm Suicide rate for Australia/New Zealand 2.4/2.5."

Page 121 - "How can you say the government of Canada's stats are outdated..."

Page 122 - "What are you even talking about?" [icon_lol2.gif]
So after the sledgehammer to the head, apparently this particular stat has finally sunk in.....
Nedroj wrote: The firearm related Suicide rates for Australia and New Zealand are almost identical at 0.8 for Australia and 0.81 for New Zealand
So now it's like what? ......what are you talking about? I knew that Australian and NZ rate of suicide was 0.8 and 0.81 all along. [icon_lol2.gif]
Sheeesh, give me a break.
Nedroj
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Nedroj »

foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 4:18 pm
Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 2:43 pm

What are you even talking about?
So you didn't write this?
Nedroj wrote:
Page 118 - "When examining firearm suicides, the Canadian rate of 3.3 per 100,000 population is similar to Australia (2.4), and New Zealand (2.5), and much lower than Finland (5.8), and the United States (7.2)."

Page 120 - "When examining firearm suicides, the Canadian rate of 3.3 per 100,000 population is similar to Australia (2.4), and New Zealand (2.5), and much lower than Finland (5.8), and the United States (7.2)."

Page 120 - "Pay attention to the last one there FIREARM SUICIDE RATES for Canada 3.3. The firearm Suicide rate for Australia/New Zealand 2.4/2.5."

Page 121 - "How can you say the government of Canada's stats are outdated..."

Page 122 - "What are you even talking about?" [icon_lol2.gif]
So after the sledgehammer to the head, apparently this particular stat has finally sunk in.....
Nedroj wrote: The firearm related Suicide rates for Australia and New Zealand are almost identical at 0.8 for Australia and 0.81 for New Zealand
So now it's like what? ......what are you talking about? I knew that Australian and NZ rate of suicide was 0.8 and 0.81 all along. [icon_lol2.gif]
Sheeesh, give me a break.
But you didn't like those government of Canada stats, remember? so I found different stats from 2022 which is far better than the WIKIpedia you cited with data ranging back to 1970's.
1) Have you checked out to see if the guvernm't stat is correct or what you think the stats means?

2) Were talking rate of GUN SUICIDE per 100,000......NOT Total Suicide rate per 100,000.

3) That's why countries that have fewer guns have significantly less gun death by firearm suicide

4) That's why Australia's gun suicide rate is twice less than ours because Aussies simply have less guns.

- feonix
Point 1) I got more up-to-date stats from a different source. The stats in both links concludes that higher gun ownership rates do not equal higher gun violence rates per 100,000 pop.

Point 2) I've addressed that and you still say it's not good enough even though the stats are providing per 100,000 pop rates I also included Total Suicides previously, because Mental Health is a major contributing factor to whether one commits suicide or murders people then we need to get a baseline of each countries suicide rate vs Gun-related suicide rates.

Point 3) No they do not "have SIGNIFICANTLY fewer gun deaths" per 100,000pop as I have proven in the previous posts today.
Keyword you used is
SIGNIFICANTLY
and that isnt true.
ie Germany vs Norway
Germany:
Gun ownership rate = 19.60
Fire-arm related death rate per 100k = 0.99
Firearm - Homicide rate = 1.01
Gun related Suicide rate = 0.02

Norway:
Gun ownership rate = 28.80
Firearm related death rate per 100k = 1.75
Firearm - Homicide rate = .1
Gun related Suicide rate = 1.63

So based on the Gun ownership rate, you would think Norway would have significantly more homicides by firearms than Germany. But nope Germany has 10x the homicide by firearms than Norway.

So why do you think the Gun-related suicide rate is so high in Norway but not in Germany? yet Gun related Homicides are high in Germany but not in Norway?

Maybe it has more to do with the overall mental health of a country rather than how many guns are contained within it?
Maybe it has more to do with the Culture of the country rather than how many guns are contained within it?

Point 4) So you are proposing taking away millions of guns from law-abiding citizens that use them on a regular basis without any issues because 23% of suicides (less than 1,000 total deaths) in Canada use a gun?

Lets use that logic in other ways: We should ban all high-end luxury vehicles as they are designed for excessive speed which is not allowed. In fact, why don't we put governors on all vehicles so no one can go over the speed limits? Then there is no need for speeding laws.

But that would be over-reaching wouldn't it? That would be more like China and less like Canada.
'I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand' - Confucius
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 4:18 pm

So you didn't write this?



So after the sledgehammer to the head, apparently this particular stat has finally sunk in.....



So now it's like what? ......what are you talking about? I knew that Australian and NZ rate of suicide was 0.8 and 0.81 all along. [icon_lol2.gif]
Sheeesh, give me a break.
But you didn't like those government of Canada stats, remember? so I found different stats from 2022 which is far better than the WIKIpedia you cited with data ranging back to 1970's.
That's Wrong, you kept pushing the outdated StatCan stat until you were proven wrong on numerous occasion and even then, you tried that, "what are you talking about" schtick. .........just today.
seewood
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Re: Gun Control

Post by seewood »

^^^^ Sheesh, cumon, Canada has for the most parts great/tolerable gun laws for most where law abiding citizens can purchase and own non restricted and restricted fire arms. There are back ground checks, storage laws, courses required and if there is a domestic issue where the police attend, the first thing they do is confiscate any firearms in the house before much else is done, in most cases. ( As per family member in the RCMP)
Trudum and his sidekick Blair are not targeting the firearm users we read and see in the media pretty much every day. Instead they are targeting law abiding firearm citizens with more restrictions or prohibitions. My dogs left some of Trudeau's and Blair's brain matter on the grass this morning.

The sensible lot realize the criminals are by far the group that is perpetuating this unnecessary need to penalize law abiding citizens.
Is it true the Liberals are dumbing down firearm offences??? As I mentioned, my dogs left...
Just leave the laws as they are and start targeting and severely penalizing firearm law breakers..

Now, if they could just find the operators of the drone in Ontario that was caught up in a tree trying to smuggle handguns in from the States. :https://www.newsweek.com/drone-carrying ... %2C%202022.
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foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

seewood wrote: May 26th, 2022, 6:04 pm ^^^^ Sheesh, cumon, Canada has for the most parts great/tolerable gun laws for most where law abiding citizens can purchase and own non restricted and restricted fire arms. There are back ground checks, storage laws, courses required and if there is a domestic issue where the police attend, the first thing they do is confiscate any firearms in the house before much else is done, in most cases. ( As per family member in the RCMP)
Trudum and his sidekick Blair are not targeting the firearm users we read and see in the media pretty much every day. Instead they are targeting law abiding firearm citizens with more restrictions or prohibitions. My dogs left some of Trudeau's and Blair's brain matter on the grass this morning.

The sensible lot realize the criminals are by far the group that is perpetuating this unnecessary need to penalize law abiding citizens.
Is it true the Liberals are dumbing down firearm offences??? As I mentioned, my dogs left...
Just leave the laws as they are and start targeting and severely penalizing firearm law breakers..

Now, if they could just find the operators of the drone in Ontario that was caught up in a tree trying to smuggle handguns in from the States. :https://www.newsweek.com/drone-carrying ... %2C%202022.
I'm already on record as saying our gun control isn't that bad compared to places like our neighbour but I'm also saying we can always do better like Japan, UK and even Australia. Like I said, I feel for the responsible gun owners in Canada that gets bulldozed by the few bad seeds. Blair is targeting the weapons that spectacularly wipe out dozens of peeps in matter of seconds. I believe majority of Canadians want that as well to the tune of 82%......so isn't that what we want our government to do?......to listen to the majority.

Eight in Ten (82%) Canadians Support Federal Government’s Ban on Military-Style Assault Weapons

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... lt-Weapons
Last edited by foenix on May 26th, 2022, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sparki55
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Sparki55 »

foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 6:18 pm Eight in Ten (82%) Canadians Support Federal Government’s Ban on Military-Style Assault Weapons

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... lt-Weapons
Define assault style rifle.

Of course most Canadians want assault rifles banned. The name of them is scary.

Now, show some photos and FACTS about the recent assault style rifle ban.

It's one thing to support a ban, it's another to understand it. Your stats need another statement "82% of Canadians support assault rifle bans and 89% of Canadians don't understand what bullet grain is"
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
Point 3) No they do not "have SIGNIFICANTLY fewer gun deaths" per 100,000pop as I have proven in the previous posts today.
Keyword you used is
SIGNIFICANTLY
and that isnt true.
ie Germany vs Norway
Germany:
Gun ownership rate = 19.60
Fire-arm related death rate per 100k = 0.99
Firearm - Homicide rate = 1.01
Gun related Suicide rate = 0.02

Norway:
Gun ownership rate = 28.80
Firearm related death rate per 100k = 1.75
Firearm - Homicide rate = .1
Gun related Suicide rate = 1.63

So based on the Gun ownership rate, you would think Norway would have significantly more homicides by firearms than Germany. But nope Germany has 10x the homicide by firearms than Norway.

So why do you think the Gun-related suicide rate is so high in Norway but not in Germany? yet Gun related Homicides are high in Germany but not in Norway?

Maybe it has more to do with the overall mental health of a country rather than how many guns are contained within it?
Maybe it has more to do with the Culture of the country rather than how many guns are contained within it?
Just in case you're going to comeback with more stats and longer post, I'll explain this part of the post although I already wrote, "there will always be exceptions" because in those research papers like Harvard's where they found positive relationships between gun ownership and suicide or firearm deaths, they use a statistical method called linear regression. It's how the researcher can determine if in fact there is a correlation like more guns = more sucide deaths. They plot the data like Germany's and Norway's to determine what kinda relationship it is and how strong. By plotting all those points they are then able to determine a reference line that best fit all those points. What the researchers in the Havard study found when they plotted all the countries in the study, they found that the overall relationship including the anomalies was that more guns = more gun deaths by suicide and gun deaths. That's why you can find little anomalies here and there like what you found with Norway and Germany........follow? :biggrin:
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

Sparki55 wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:39 pm
foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 6:18 pm Eight in Ten (82%) Canadians Support Federal Government’s Ban on Military-Style Assault Weapons

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/ ... lt-Weapons
Define assault style rifle.

Of course most Canadians want assault rifles banned. The name of them is scary.

Now, show some photos and FACTS about the recent assault style rifle ban.

It's one thing to support a ban, it's another to understand it. Your stats need another statement "82% of Canadians support assault rifle bans and 89% of Canadians don't understand what bullet grain is"
I already posted that for you pages back with bunch of pictures of the banned weapons and their specs. Although it might not have been you but it sure looked like same question. If I feel ambitious, I'll retrieve it for you.

I'm not sure if this was it.....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudea ... -1.5552131

I gotta say, I've known a lot of hunters, family and friends but I've never seen them take any of the banned guns hunting.

How about this one?

Trudeau signals new gun-control changes coming; here's what the Liberals have promised


As for what's outstanding, and could soon be coming from the federal government, the Liberals have promised to:

- Follow through on requiring owners of banned firearms sell them back to the government to be destroyed or "rendered inoperable"; 

-Move to ban the sale or transfer of high-capacity magazines that can hold more than the legal number of bullets; 

-Require long-gun magazines be permanently altered "so that they can never hold more than five rounds”; 

-Provide funding to provinces and territories who move ahead with banning handguns in their municipalities; 

-Increase the maximum penalties for firearm trafficking and smuggling; and Table "red flag laws" that would allow firearms to be immediately removed if the owner is deemed a threat to themselves or others.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau ... -1.5919582

Ouch!
mikest2
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Re: Gun Control

Post by mikest2 »

foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:59 pm
Nedroj wrote: May 26th, 2022, 5:27 pm
Point 3) No they do not "have SIGNIFICANTLY fewer gun deaths" per 100,000pop as I have proven in the previous posts today.
Keyword you used is and that isnt true.
ie Germany vs Norway
Germany:
Gun ownership rate = 19.60
Fire-arm related death rate per 100k = 0.99
Firearm - Homicide rate = 1.01
Gun related Suicide rate = 0.02

Norway:
Gun ownership rate = 28.80
Firearm related death rate per 100k = 1.75
Firearm - Homicide rate = .1
Gun related Suicide rate = 1.63

So based on the Gun ownership rate, you would think Norway would have significantly more homicides by firearms than Germany. But nope Germany has 10x the homicide by firearms than Norway.

So why do you think the Gun-related suicide rate is so high in Norway but not in Germany? yet Gun related Homicides are high in Germany but not in Norway?

Maybe it has more to do with the overall mental health of a country rather than how many guns are contained within it?
Maybe it has more to do with the Culture of the country rather than how many guns are contained within it?
Just in case you're going to comeback with more stats and longer post, I'll explain this part of the post although I already wrote, "there will always be exceptions" because in those research papers like Harvard's where they found positive relationships between gun ownership and suicide or firearm deaths, they use a statistical method called linear regression. It's how the researcher can determine if in fact there is a correlation like more guns = more sucide deaths. They plot the data like Germany's and Norway's to determine what kinda relationship it is and how strong. By plotting all those points they are then able to determine a reference line that best fit all those points. What the researchers in the Havard study found when they plotted all the countries in the study, they found that the overall relationship including the anomalies was that more guns = more gun deaths by suicide and gun deaths. That's why you can find little anomalies here and there like what you found with Norway and Germany........follow? :biggrin:
Wow, linear regression, in the USA, study by an American university, way old news, staler argument. This post is about gun control, not twisting SUICIDE stats into punishing law abiding citizens.
Once I thought I was wrong.....but I was mistaken...
foenix
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Re: Gun Control

Post by foenix »

mikest2 wrote: May 26th, 2022, 8:36 pm
foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:59 pm

Just in case you're going to comeback with more stats and longer post, I'll explain this part of the post although I already wrote, "there will always be exceptions" because in those research papers like Harvard's where they found positive relationships between gun ownership and suicide or firearm deaths, they use a statistical method called linear regression. It's how the researcher can determine if in fact there is a correlation like more guns = more sucide deaths. They plot the data like Germany's and Norway's to determine what kinda relationship it is and how strong. By plotting all those points they are then able to determine a reference line that best fit all those points. What the researchers in the Havard study found when they plotted all the countries in the study, they found that the overall relationship including the anomalies was that more guns = more gun deaths by suicide and gun deaths. That's why you can find little anomalies here and there like what you found with Norway and Germany........follow? :biggrin:
Wow, linear regression, in the USA, study by an American university, way old news, staler argument. This post is about gun control, not twisting SUICIDE stats into punishing law abiding citizens.
Wow! You didn't read the links or follow the discussion, hey? I can tell. The Harvard compilation is on various research into gun ownership and their relationship to homicide gun deaths, gun suicides, etc from all over the world, including Canada......no pain no gain :biggrin:
Sparki55
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Sparki55 »

foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 8:02 pm I already posted that for you pages back with bunch of pictures of the banned weapons and their specs. Although it might not have been you but it sure looked like same question. If I feel ambitious, I'll retrieve it for you.

I'm not sure if this was it.....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudea ... -1.5552131

I gotta say, I've known a lot of hunters, family and friends but I've never seen them take any of the banned guns hunting.
Yes you have seen them with similar rifles since you have no idea how guns work.

Those banned guns "look" scary but they have legal counterparts that are the exact same bullet size, action and magazine size. So while hunters generally use a more classic look, the guns are the same.
foenix wrote: May 26th, 2022, 8:02 pm How about this one?

Trudeau signals new gun-control changes coming; here's what the Liberals have promised


As for what's outstanding, and could soon be coming from the federal government, the Liberals have promised to:

- Follow through on requiring owners of banned firearms sell them back to the government to be destroyed or "rendered inoperable"; 

-Move to ban the sale or transfer of high-capacity magazines that can hold more than the legal number of bullets; 

-Require long-gun magazines be permanently altered "so that they can never hold more than five rounds”; 

-Provide funding to provinces and territories who move ahead with banning handguns in their municipalities; 

-Increase the maximum penalties for firearm trafficking and smuggling; and Table "red flag laws" that would allow firearms to be immediately removed if the owner is deemed a threat to themselves or others.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau ... -1.5919582

Ouch!
Ouch? Lol... Besides the buyback, those suggested restrictions actually make sense. Making it harder to modify magazine restrictions and removing guns from those threatening all make great sense.
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