Graves at Residential schools

Brass Monkey
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:24 pm What happened to Chanie Wenjack was terrible. He died after the adults in the families of the kids with whom he ran away allowed him to continue on alone, on foot, in October. It is easier to place all of the blame for his death on the adults at Chanie's day school and his boarding house, than it is to acknowledge the several adults who actually knew he was leaving on foot, in October, alone, and allowed him to make the attempt.
He died trying to escape the residential school he was interned in. He died trying to escape the school, not the family that fostered him and gave him some food and supplies for his journey. To blame his death on the family that did not intern him in that school is appalling and quite surprising coming from you who I consider to be a more moderate member of the forum.
rustled wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:24 pmWe don't yet know the circumstances of all of the children buried here, and we may never know. But IMO it simply isn't respectful to remodel them all into a montage and "see" them all blended together the only way folk today see "Charlie" Wenjack. The poster child of "Charlie" Wenjack is more real to people than the little boy Chanie Wenjack, whose real life and real death no longer seem to matter quite enough.
I know that 3 men in my ancestral lineage attended that school and 1 of them has not been heard from since his internment in that school. This doesn't lead me to believe that the school in Kamloops was any better than the more notorious ones out East.
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Babba_not_Gump
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by Babba_not_Gump »

PoplarSoul wrote: May 31st, 2021, 5:09 pm
bb49 wrote: May 31st, 2021, 3:24 pm Will he be handing out millions? I really hope not.
Why not?
Can't you spare a dime?
As a taxpayer that's about how much it will cost you.
If that was the only dime Trudeau was sucking out of me, then yes, I could spare it.

Here, for your educational purposes:
Canada's deficit,
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/0 ... on-january
$268,000,000,000. Or $6,700 for every man, woman and child.
And that is as of last January, and it's climbing.

How many dimes can you spare?
I'm posting this from Traditional lands of the British Empire & the current Lands of The Dominion of Canada.
I also give thanks for this ethos richness bestowed on us via British Colonialism.

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GordonH
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

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^^^ I could be wrong here, I believe our debt is round 1.1 trillion dollars.
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normaM
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

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Of course Govt should pay, it created Residential Schools. Instead of lowering flags JT should be speeding up the process already before the Courts re settlements instead of using stalling tactics
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techrtr
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by techrtr »

I won't be surprised if the site is never excavated. The media is calling it the "discovery of a mass grave" where 215 children were buried even though there is no hard evidence that there is a single burial there. BTW, ground penetrating radar doesn't show bodies, neatly arranged in rows, arms crossed over their chests - it doesn't work that way. Also what is a mass grave? By definition it's a grave where multiple bodies are buried. So, does that mean 215 children were buried in one grave? Did they all die at the same time?

Now there are already demands for compensation. I think next there will be demands not to desecrate the sacred ground by excavating the remains. So, we may never know how many if any bodies are actually buried there. No academic or politician in their right mind is going to stand up and say "uhhhhhh, there's no proof of anything so calm down until the investigation is complete."
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by sherashera »

techrtr wrote: Jun 1st, 2021, 7:27 am I won't be surprised if the site is never excavated. The media is calling it the "discovery of a mass grave" where 215 children were buried even though there is no hard evidence that there is a single burial there. BTW, ground penetrating radar doesn't show bodies, neatly arranged in rows, arms crossed over their chests - it doesn't work that way. Also what is a mass grave? By definition it's a grave where multiple bodies are buried. So, does that mean 215 children were buried in one grave? Did they all die at the same time?

Now there are already demands for compensation. I think next there will be demands not to desecrate the sacred ground by excavating the remains. So, we may never know how many if any bodies are actually buried there. No academic or politician in their right mind is going to stand up and say "uhhhhhh, there's no proof of anything so calm down until the investigation is complete."
How do they know the exact number, and if the band leads knew about this decades ago why is it coming out right now? Yes they will want more compensation for something that didn't happen directly to them.
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normaM
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by normaM »

Geophysical techniques such as GPR have been used by law enforcement agencies for some time - to detect buried remains. Not like it is something new and cannot be trusted
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techrtr
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by techrtr »

normaM wrote: Jun 1st, 2021, 8:17 am Geophysical techniques such as GPR have been used by law enforcement agencies for some time - to detect buried remains. Not like it is something new and cannot be trusted
Not saying it can't be trusted. What I'm saying is until the site is excavated, you can't assume that what GPR is detecting is a body. People need to stop jumping to conclusions until the site has been properly investigated. Maybe it will turn out that there are in fact 215 kids buried there. Maybe there are more than that. Or, maybe there aren't any.
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by ferri »

'Delicate, sensitive process'
(Bolding mine)
Ground-penetrating radar consists of a small antenna shaped as a box, which is dragged along the surface of the ground while sending a signal into the soil, she says. If there is a difference between the surrounding soil and a particular location, it changes the signal.

"In the case of looking for unmarked graves and burial locations, what this piece of equipment is able to show are areas that have been disturbed," Supernant explains.

"When you dig a grave, the soil changes — the composition changes, the density can change — and the ground-penetrating radar can actually pick up that change."


Her team pulls the equipment over the ground in a grid of 25-centimetre intervals, using frequencies best suited to detect changes two to three metres deep.

She worked on one project involving a residential school in 2018 in Saskatchewan. She and her team helped find remains of students of the Muscowequan Indian Residential School located near Lestock.
More here: https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/33 ... ess#335569
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marooned
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by marooned »

I am quite frankly surprised at the tone of some of the comments here, basically whitewashing the horrors of residential schools by looking for ways to sideways blame or shame the indigenous community for not wanting graves disturbed or wanting money, or questioning the technology used to establish the number. It's quite frankly sickening.

I have written to my MP and the PM asking that the federal government fund the exploration of other sites across the country. We need to uncover the complete history of this chapter of our history in order to have our communities and nation heal. This is the least we can do.
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by stuphoto »

marooned wrote: Jun 1st, 2021, 10:03 am I am quite frankly surprised at the tone of some of the comments here, basically whitewashing the horrors of residential schools by looking for ways to sideways blame or shame the indigenous community for not wanting graves disturbed or wanting money, or questioning the technology used to establish the number. It's quite frankly sickening.

I have written to my MP and the PM asking that the federal government fund the exploration of other sites across the country. We need to uncover the complete history of this chapter of our history in order to have our communities and nation heal. This is the least we can do.
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rustled
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:55 pm
rustled wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:24 pm What happened to Chanie Wenjack was terrible. He died after the adults in the families of the kids with whom he ran away allowed him to continue on alone, on foot, in October. It is easier to place all of the blame for his death on the adults at Chanie's day school and his boarding house, than it is to acknowledge the several adults who actually knew he was leaving on foot, in October, alone, and allowed him to make the attempt.
He died trying to escape the residential school he was interned in. He died trying to escape the school, not the family that fostered him and gave him some food and supplies for his journey. To blame his death on the family that did not intern him in that school is appalling and quite surprising coming from you who I consider to be a more moderate member of the forum.
You've used the word "blame" - I've simply acknowledged they do share some responsibility. You've also used "interned" as though there were locked fences. The "school" was a dormitory, administered by a Cree/Saulteaux who was devastated by Charlie's death. (Reading the correspondence was heartbreaking. I found it online years ago, but was unable to find it last time I searched for it. If I'm able to find it again, I'll post a link for you. Meanwhile, there's this https://fcpp.org/2017/11/17/misinformat ... -children/ , which shows I may well have been wrong about his name. :-X Shame on me. Truth is proving to be a slippery fish.) The children housed in the dormitory were integrated into the public schools in town, and were free to roam and play outside. The only practical thing the staff at the boarding facility could have done to prevent homesick children from running away would have been to lock them up and deny them what freedom they had to play outdoors with other children, and surely no one would support that.

I would hope that the children living at the Kamloops residential school were given as much freedom to roam and play as most children had during that time - that they were not incarcerated or "interned" as you've chosen to put it. And that the staff cared as much about them as the staff of Wenjack's dormitory, where as soon as the staff realized Charlie and several other children hadn't come in for supper and had likely run away, they started searching for them.

"Because residential school" subverts the truth. The boys Charlie had left the playground with were found safe. The truth is, several adults who DID know what Charlie was doing failed him. They didn't "foster" Charlie, https://www.macleans.ca/society/the-lon ... e-wenjack/ and they certainly didn't supply him for a journey of hundreds of miles in October - he wasn't properly dressed for temperatures below freezing, had no food and only a glass jar of matches. Yet for too many people, these adults having failed in their responsibility to Charlie doesn't matter "because residential school".

So of course the first assumption of too many people is that the children presumed to be interred in the site at Kamloops died because of the abuse and neglect of the staff, a la the dramatized caricatures of "Secret Path" etc. That some of them died of abuse and neglect is no doubt true for some of the children, but it is highly unlikely it is true for all, and IMO these children were individuals and the least they deserve from us now is to be known for themselves - not blurred into a nameless collective narrative.

How can it surprise you that I insist on the full truth? I have never been moderate in my insistence that the full truth should matter to all of us. If "Truth and Reconciliation" doesn't actually require observance of the truth, it becomes a caricature to serve a purpose other than the truth - just as too many have turned Charlie's life and death into a caricature, just as First Nations people have been caricatured for political agendas. What IS the point in re-creating these same terrible mistakes over and over again, and expecting a better outcome?
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:24 pmWe don't yet know the circumstances of all of the children buried here, and we may never know. But IMO it simply isn't respectful to remodel them all into a montage and "see" them all blended together the only way folk today see "CharlieChanie" Wenjack. The poster child of "CharlieChanie" Wenjack is more real to people than the little boy Chanie Charlie Wenjack, whose real life and real death no longer seem to matter quite enough.
I know that 3 men in my ancestral lineage attended that school and 1 of them has not been heard from since his internment in that school. This doesn't lead me to believe that the school in Kamloops was any better than the more notorious ones out East.
On a personal note, I'm saddened by the disappearance of a child from your family - my sincere condolences. I can only imagine how this news affects your family, and too many others.

We don't have to look east for notoriety. There were terrible abuses at schools and boarding facilities in the west, including BC. I've no doubt there were terrible abuses at this school in Kamloops, too.

It simply seems important to me, as always, to be open to the whole truth of what happened to each of the many children presumed to be buried at this site.
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Lesley2525 wrote: May 31st, 2021, 4:35 pm Nova Scotia is home to the horrendous "butterbox babies" affair. Not Catholics this time, but a couple of shady Seventh Day Adventists ran a home for unwed mothers. "Babies who were considered 'unadoptable', either because of skin color or health issues, were left to die and buried in the woods behind the Home or dumped into the ocean" They sold the other babies. Netflix made a drama about it, and several books have been written about it.
https://youtu.be/j-DSosDBUZg
The Catholic church (maybe other churches as well) also ran homes for unwed mothers and stole their babies or forced them to adopt, even mothers who didn't want to put child up for adoption had babies taken or were told they died at birth. I don't know in how many provinces they did this, but for sure it happened in Alberta, probably elsewhere.
The Catholic church seems to be at the bottom of a lot of social engineering that they had no business doing. They need to be brought onto the carpet for all of it.
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by Silverstarqueen »

techrtr wrote: Jun 1st, 2021, 8:31 am
normaM wrote: Jun 1st, 2021, 8:17 am Geophysical techniques such as GPR have been used by law enforcement agencies for some time - to detect buried remains. Not like it is something new and cannot be trusted
Not saying it can't be trusted. What I'm saying is until the site is excavated, you can't assume that what GPR is detecting is a body. People need to stop jumping to conclusions until the site has been properly investigated. Maybe it will turn out that there are in fact 215 kids buried there. Maybe there are more than that. Or, maybe there aren't any.
Well there must be some reason why the reports are 215 remains of children, and even an approximate age on some of them.(There are also rumors of more buried at that school). If the radar shows 215 nicely arranged irregularities in the ground, how many different explanations would there be for that? As in one photo I saw of graves outside a school, which were marked with wooden crosses at the time, they were all arranged in a row.Even if those markers disintegrated over the years, the radar is going to show a regular arrangement of the remains.
Of course the Catholic church was not counting on new technology helping to fing all the buried remains. If they had coughed the documentations years ago, this would not be a major concern now, would it? It would be water under the bridge and most would have moved on by now. People are blaming the First nations for continuing to press on this for so many years. Well it didn't have to be like that. The Church is responsible for not owning up to what happened and the fact they have been so stingy with the records indicates a BIG FAT COVERUP of something.
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Re: Remains of 215 youth found

Post by Fancy »

There will certainly be far reaching consequences - like this one:
UBC reviewing honours given to Catholic bishop and former Kamloops residential school principal
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6047229

it would be prudent to accelerate the exhumation and provide an explanation why authorities think there are that many children. Seems too precise a number to completely depend on the equipment used.
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