Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Brass Monkey
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am You've sidestepped the question.

A quarter of Israel's population is non-Jewish, a sixth Arab. Their rights are protected in Israel.
Israel has displaced 3x as many Palestinians and refused their right of return as their are Arabs in Israel - while insisting that Jews who have never stepped foot in Israel have a birthright to Israel.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am If one of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs held the same public beliefs as Yonatan Yosef and wanted every non-Wet'suwet'en removed from Moricetown, would it then be appropriate to use the term "apartheid community" to describe the community of Moricetown? If not, why should we rely on the actions of self-described Zionist as an excuse for using the term "apartheid state" to describe Israel?
If Wet’suwet’en members were forcibly removing non-indigenous from their communities under the protection of the head of state then I would say it is apartheid.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am What makes it ok to use a term with undertones of intolerance and hatred to describe Israel, when it would be illogical to use the same term with undertones of intolerance and hatred to describe other similar communities?
Because you haven’t listed a similar community.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am It seems evident to me that this is the sort of illogical thinking behind the rise of anti-Semitism in Canada.
I think it’s because after 50 years people of the Western World are, with the help of technology, seeing first hand how Israeli law protects Jewish settlement and emboldens the removal of Arab settlements within Israel’s borders.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
Brass Monkey
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:47 am It seems to me we're expected to base our "feelings" about Israel on "a guy like Yonatan Yosef", and make it all about hate.
You could base it on Israel’s displacement of approximately 5-6 million external and internal Arab refugees and their promotion of Jewish-only settlement through national law.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:48 am
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am You've sidestepped the question.

A quarter of Israel's population is non-Jewish, a sixth Arab. Their rights are protected in Israel.
Israel has displaced 3x as many Palestinians and refused their right of return as their are Arabs in Israel - while insisting that Jews who have never stepped foot in Israel have a birthright to Israel.
I'll look into what you're claiming here about "right of return". While I suspect it's more complicated than the way you've stated it here, I could be wrong. Always something to learn!
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:34 am If one of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs held the same public beliefs as Yonatan Yosef and wanted every non-Wet'suwet'en removed from Moricetown, would it then be appropriate to use the term "apartheid community" to describe the community of Moricetown? If not, why should we rely on the actions of self-described Zionist as an excuse for using the term "apartheid state" to describe Israel?
If Wet’suwet’en members were forcibly removing non-indigenous from their communities under the protection of the head of state then I would say it is apartheid.
Are you referring to the removal of people who lost their court battle to remain on land they've been occupying, yet refuse to leave? If so, it seems unlikely to me you'd refer to it as apartheid if a non-indigenous person lost a similar court battle to remain on First Nations land they'd been occupying, yet refused to leave, and was forcibly removed.

I find the double standard applied to Israel highly problematic.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:50 am
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:47 am It seems to me we're expected to base our "feelings" about Israel on "a guy like Yonatan Yosef", and make it all about hate.
You could base it on Israel’s displacement of approximately 5-6 million external and internal Arab refugees and their promotion of Jewish-only settlement through national law.
Another gross oversimplification - and again, easily contrasted to see how double-standards are applied.

And still: making it all about hate. Intolerance of an entire people. Seems to me we were once united in thinking this sort of intolerant bigotry and hatred were wrong. Terrible to see it being "justified" now.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
Brass Monkey
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:57 am Are you referring to the removal of people who lost their court battle to remain on land they've been occupying, yet refuse to leave? If so, it seems unlikely to me you'd refer to it as apartheid if a non-indigenous person lost a similar court battle to remain on First Nations land they'd been occupying, yet refused to leave, and was forcibly removed.

I find the double standard applied to Israel highly problematic.
I’m referring to the original 700,000 Palestinian refugees and the millions of their sons and daughters who are at present being denied their return to their homelands because of Israeli law - while Israeli law protects a birthright for Jews to return to Israel even if they cannot trace any habitation of Israel in their lineage.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:58 am Another gross oversimplification - and again, easily contrasted to see how double-standards are applied.

And still: making it all about hate. Intolerance of an entire people. Seems to me we were once united in thinking this sort of intolerant bigotry and hatred were wrong. Terrible to see it being "justified" now.
United in one sense and divided in another. United in condemning fascism and totalitarianism / authoritarianism. Divided in where we stand on how we justify or condemn the lawful or unjust occupation of peoples lands.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:21 am
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:57 am Are you referring to the removal of people who lost their court battle to remain on land they've been occupying, yet refuse to leave? If so, it seems unlikely to me you'd refer to it as apartheid if a non-indigenous person lost a similar court battle to remain on First Nations land they'd been occupying, yet refused to leave, and was forcibly removed.

I find the double standard applied to Israel highly problematic.
I’m referring to the original 700,000 Palestinian refugees and the millions of their sons and daughters who are at present being denied their return to their homelands because of Israeli law - while Israeli law protects a birthright for Jews to return to Israel even if they cannot trace any habitation of Israel in their lineage.
I have yet to discover whether your interpretation of law as presented here is accurate.

Regardless, I find it highly unlikely indeed that my response to that law will include using it as justification for the using language and terms that promote stereotyping and hatred against an entire people.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
rustled
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:24 am
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 10:58 am Another gross oversimplification - and again, easily contrasted to see how double-standards are applied.

And still: making it all about hate. Intolerance of an entire people. Seems to me we were once united in thinking this sort of intolerant bigotry and hatred were wrong. Terrible to see it being "justified" now.
United in one sense and divided in another. United in condemning fascism and totalitarianism / authoritarianism. Divided in where we stand on how we justify or condemn the lawful or unjust occupation of peoples lands.
When your version of uniting to condemn wrong involves another wrong - using stereotypes and loaded terms likely to promote hatred to describe an entire group of people - count me out.

If the hatred, intolerance and bigotry of anti-Semitism do form the dividing line between where you stand and where I stand, that is a line I'm not prepared to cross.

Instead, I invite you to cross back from intolerance and bigotry and hatred to the place where we all were, before we learned intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, stereotyping and hatred required for anti-Semitism.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
Brass Monkey
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am When your version of uniting to condemn wrong involves another wrong - using stereotypes and loaded terms likely to promote hatred to describe an entire group of people - count me out.
I haven’t employed a single stereotype.

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am If the hatred, intolerance and bigotry of anti-Semitism do form the dividing line between where you stand and where I stand, that is a line I'm not prepared to cross.
I haven’t said a single anti-Semitic trope or said I support it.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am Instead, I invite you to cross back from intolerance and bigotry and hatred to the place where we all were, before we learned intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, stereotyping and hatred required for anti-Semitism.
Yes and then I can be like the Canadians of the early 1900s and turn a blind eye to Israeli settlement over unprotected peoples lands.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

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Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:54 am
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am When your version of uniting to condemn wrong involves another wrong - using stereotypes and loaded terms likely to promote hatred to describe an entire group of people - count me out.
I haven’t employed a single stereotype.
You've used a specific person as an example of why we should share your view, along with loaded language.

Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am If the hatred, intolerance and bigotry of anti-Semitism do form the dividing line between where you stand and where I stand, that is a line I'm not prepared to cross.
I haven’t said a single anti-Semitic trope or said I support it.
You certainly seem to be justifying anti-Semitism.
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 11:35 am Instead, I invite you to cross back from intolerance and bigotry and hatred to the place where we all were, before we learned intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, stereotyping and hatred required for anti-Semitism.
Yes and then I can be like the Canadians of the early 1900s and turn a blind eye to Israeli settlement over unprotected peoples lands.
You can be like anyone who stands against injustice without justifying the use of loaded language, and without suggesting we should join you in hating "a guy like Yonatan Yosef".
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

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rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You've used a specific person as an example of why we should share your view, along with loaded language.
This specific person is empowered by the Israeli government. It is no longer a matter of individualism when the government emboldens it.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You certainly seem to be justifying anti-Semitism.
I think you might be conflating anti-radical zionism and anti-semitism.

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You can be like anyone who stands against injustice without justifying the use of loaded language, and without suggesting we should join you in hating "a guy like Yonatan Yosef".
Yonatan Yosef is cut from the same cloth as those who believe that America belongs to the whites, the same as those who believed Germany belonged to the whites. There are ethnic nationalists in every nation but it seems Israeli’s get a pass on it.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:14 pm
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You've used a specific person as an example of why we should share your view, along with loaded language.
This specific person is empowered by the Israeli government. It is no longer a matter of individualism when the government emboldens it.
While I'm not prepared to take your description here as accurate, I'd also suggest there's no reason to be intolerant of any group of people because of what their government does or does not do.

Choosing not seeing people as individuals is the basic requirement for prejudice, bigotry and intolerance.
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You certainly seem to be justifying anti-Semitism.
I think you might be conflating anti-radical zionism and anti-semitism.
You're here in this thread about anti-Semitism in Canada, presenting arguments and excuses intended to justify the increase in anti-Semitism.
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You can be like anyone who stands against injustice without justifying the use of loaded language, and without suggesting we should join you in hating "a guy like Yonatan Yosef".
Yonatan Yosef is cut from the same cloth as those who believe that America belongs to the whites, the same as those who believed Germany belonged to the whites. There are ethnic nationalists in every nation but it seems Israeli’s get a pass on it.
Your "Israelis get a pass on it" complaint promotes the notion that Israelis are Yonatan Yosef, someone you ask us to hate. I find your statements in this thread rife with intolerance bigotry, stereotyping and prejudice against Israelis. I find little evidence you see them as individuals, and plenty of evidence you see them all as guilty of crimes against Arabs. This is seriously problematic, IMO - a terrible backsliding to embrace and promote the intolerance and bigotry that leads to hatred. Nothing good can come of it.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

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rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:32 pm While I'm not prepared to take your description here as accurate, I'd also suggest there's no reason to be intolerant of any group of people because of what their government does or does not do.
The government did not tell him to be a radical Zionist and adopt a vision of East Jerusalem as a purely Jewish one. He manifested that desire himself. He is one of many radical Zionist’s who have been empowered by the Israeli government.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm Choosing not seeing people as individuals is the basic requirement for prejudice, bigotry and intolerance.
Pretending that radical ethnic nationalists are isolated anomalies and not part of a growing group of radicals is how these groups come to power and start persecuting who they believe to be undesirable.


rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You're here in this thread about anti-Semitism in Canada, presenting arguments and excuses intended to justify the increase in anti-Semitism.
You’ve no idea what my intentions are. It is tragic but to be expected that expats are on that receiving end of the social fallout when their native nations are committing unjust acts against unprotected peoples. It happened to the Germans, then the Japanese, then the Vietnamese, then the Arabs and then the Jews.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm Your "Israelis get a pass on it" complaint promotes the notion that Israelis are Yonatan Yosef, someone you ask us to hate. I find your statements in this thread rife with intolerance bigotry, stereotyping and prejudice against Israelis. I find little evidence you see them as individuals, and plenty of evidence you see them all as guilty of crimes against Arabs. This is seriously problematic, IMO - a terrible backsliding to embrace and promote the intolerance and bigotry that leads to hatred. Nothing good can come of it.
Yonatan is a racist, far-right nationalist whose vision of a utopia is one where all of Israel is inhabited by Jewish people and only Jewish people. This is a universal stain on humanity and the only reason I’ve come to believe you cannot condemn him is because he is Israeli. I didn’t insinuate all Israelis are like Yonatan, I insinuated men like Yonatan get a pass because he is Israeli and many see the condemnation of radical Jewish supremacy as anti-semitism.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by rustled »

Brass Monkey wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:45 pm
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm You're here in this thread about anti-Semitism in Canada, presenting arguments and excuses intended to justify the increase in anti-Semitism.
You’ve no idea what my intentions are.
Regardless of your intentions, the results here speak for themselves. Using loaded terms, presenting someone vile as representative of a people and inviting people to hate are ugly tactics.
Brass Monkey wrote:
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm Your "Israelis get a pass on it" complaint promotes the notion that Israelis are Yonatan Yosef, someone you ask us to hate. I find your statements in this thread rife with intolerance bigotry, stereotyping and prejudice against Israelis. I find little evidence you see them as individuals, and plenty of evidence you see them all as guilty of crimes against Arabs. This is seriously problematic, IMO - a terrible backsliding to embrace and promote the intolerance and bigotry that leads to hatred. Nothing good can come of it.
Yonatan is a racist, far-right nationalist whose vision of a utopia is one where all of Israel is inhabited by Jewish people and only Jewish people. This is a universal stain on humanity and the only reason I’ve come to believe you cannot condemn him is because he is Israeli.
How quickly you've formed a belief about me.

I haven't condemned him because I have only the words of someone who seems to me to be very ready to condemn groups of people through the use racial stereotypes and bigotry and intolerance - someone who expects me to hate him - on which to base that condemnation. It's interesting to me that you've chosen to criticize me for not condemning him on your word alone. How quickly you've reverted to asking me to join you in hating someone I do not know nor understand.
Brass Monkey wrote:I didn’t insinuate all Israelis are like Yonatan, I insinuated men like Yonatan get a pass because he is Israeli and many see the condemnation of radical Jewish supremacy as anti-semitism.
Perhaps, then, the problem is in your own perspective - the perspective that assumes everyone chooses who to condemn based on stereotypes, prejudices and bigotry. You believe Yonatan belongs in a "group", and once you've established for the rest of us which group he is in, we should be prepared to condemn him, too?

IMO, that is precisely how intolerance and prejudice works to build hate in the world. I want no part of it.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn
Brass Monkey
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Re: Anti-Semitism in Canada - More Leftist hate

Post by Brass Monkey »

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 1:00 pm
Regardless of your intentions, the results here speak for themselves. Using loaded terms, presenting someone vile as representative of a people and inviting people to hate are ugly tactics.
Your refusal to condemn a Jewish supremacist is telling. Maybe anti-semitism grows with peoples attempt at normalizing Jewish supremacy.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm I haven't condemned him because I have only the words of someone who seems to me to be very ready to condemn groups of people through the use racial stereotypes and bigotry and intolerance - someone who expects me to hate him - on which to base that condemnation. It's interesting to me that you've chosen to criticize me for not condemning him on your word alone. How quickly you've reverted to asking me to join you in hating someone I do not know nor understand.
Not once did I blame Jews. I blamed radical Jewish supremacists who are emboldened by an affiliate government.

If you do not know or understand the phenomenon of Jewish Supremacy then maybe you aren’t up to task to discuss the realities of anti-semitism and how it blends with the Israel-Palestine conflict.

rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm Perhaps, then, the problem is in your own perspective - the perspective that assumes everyone chooses who to condemn based on stereotypes, prejudices and bigotry. You believe Yonatan belongs in a "group", and once you've established for the rest of us which group he is in, we should be prepared to condemn him, too?
Yonatan does belong to a group, he is a sitting member of the Jerusalem City Council. Yonatan is one of many who believe that the forcible removable of non-Jews from Israel has been ordained by a divine power.
rustled wrote: Sep 10th, 2021, 12:03 pm IMO, that is precisely how intolerance and prejudice works to build hate in the world. I want no part of it.
Then you should have no qualms in condemning the supremacist philosophies of men like Yonatan Yosef.
“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense." - Sir John A. MacDonald

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