"Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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Gone_Fishin
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"Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

Post by Gone_Fishin »

It's a plan that will replace good paying, middle class jobs with lower paying, lower class jobs.

Creating nothing but more and more dependence on government and opening the door to higher taxes on lower wages to maintain government revenues - why? Who gains except the very wealthy?


"Just transition": it's difficult to legislate the replacement of jobs in a still-critical industry (oil & gas) that pay very well (avg. ~$125,000/year) with jobs in a low margin industry (renewables) that pay much less and call it "just" and build "strong social consensus."


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spooker
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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So the fossil-fueled gravy train is over? So sad ... they'll have to buy regular height pickups now
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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spooker wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 7:18 am So the fossil-fueled gravy train is over? So sad ... they'll have to buy regular height pickups now
And the guy making $40,000 a year at the solar plant has to pay the same amount in taxes that the guy who made $125,000 a year in oil & gas to keep government revenues at a level that will fund education, health care, etc.

How are you going to heat your home with no gas? With a windmill?

Is that what you want? Remember, there's only one taxpayer.
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 6:17 am It's a plan that will replace good paying, middle class jobs with lower paying, lower class jobs.

Creating nothing but more and more dependence on government and opening the door to higher taxes on lower wages to maintain government revenues - why? Who gains except the very wealthy?


"Just transition": it's difficult to legislate the replacement of jobs in a still-critical industry (oil & gas) that pay very well (avg. ~$125,000/year) with jobs in a low margin industry (renewables) that pay much less and call it "just" and build "strong social consensus."


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Oh is this more like that fake story that came out of the discussion paper on capital gains tax on our primary residence which turned out to be a nothing story?....................kinda like that?
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spooker
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:14 am And the guy making $40,000 a year at the solar plant has to pay the same amount in taxes that the guy who made $125,000 a year in oil & gas to keep government revenues at a level that will fund education, health care, etc.

How are you going to heat your home with no gas? With a windmill?

Is that what you want? Remember, there's only one taxpayer.
When I was much younger I built a heat capture panel that used water as the exchange liquid ... quite interesting at the time and I know that materials have come quite a ways since then, would be curious what I could do with it now ...

A bit misleading to say that the guy making $40k would pay the same in taxes as the guy who made $125k ... very obviously incorrect ... but it's the government's job to figure out how to balance their books, I'll just hold them accountable at election time as that's the way we've set it up ...

Personally I don't think the government taxed the oil that came out of Canadian soil enough ... they should have followed Norway's lead and had a nice fat bank account to fund the leftover crap the bankrupt energy companies left in the fields of Alberta etc ...
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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spooker wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 9:50 am
Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:14 am And the guy making $40,000 a year at the solar plant has to pay the same amount in taxes that the guy who made $125,000 a year in oil & gas to keep government revenues at a level that will fund education, health care, etc.

How are you going to heat your home with no gas? With a windmill?

Is that what you want? Remember, there's only one taxpayer.
When I was much younger I built a heat capture panel that used water as the exchange liquid ... quite interesting at the time and I know that materials have come quite a ways since then, would be curious what I could do with it now ...

A bit misleading to say that the guy making $40k would pay the same in taxes as the guy who made $125k ... very obviously incorrect ... but it's the government's job to figure out how to balance their books, I'll just hold them accountable at election time as that's the way we've set it up ...

Personally I don't think the government taxed the oil that came out of Canadian soil enough ... they should have followed Norway's lead and had a nice fat bank account to fund the leftover crap the bankrupt energy companies left in the fields of Alberta etc ...
If we're trading workers in O&G into renewables at a much lower wage, but need to fund our social programs, we will have to make the lower waged person maintain those programs with his taxes. Where do you think money comes from to run government programs?

Moreover, it costs more to look after a lower waged workforce than it does to look after a well paid workforce. Healthcare costs are ultimately higher when lower wages result in people forgoing treatment of disease because they can't afford it, and they don't get healthy nutrition levels. This falls on tax-funded healthcare to deal with.

Low wage employers also have less robust benefit plans, and that offloads costs to our healthcare system.

I don't think people are making the connection here, and need to consider this without political blinders on.

Lower wages suck.
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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spooker wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 9:50 am A bit misleading to say that the guy making $40k would pay the same in taxes as the guy who made $125k ... very obviously incorrect ...
Because oilsands' workers are the only one contributing to society.
No oilsands .. no Canada.
That's what I keep hearing anyways.
So if you have no oilsands workers, you only have $40,000. per year workers across Canada to pay for it all.
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spooker
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

Post by spooker »

Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 10:21 am If we're trading workers in O&G into renewables at a much lower wage, but need to fund our social programs, we will have to make the lower waged person maintain those programs with his taxes. Where do you think money comes from to run government programs?

Moreover, it costs more to look after a lower waged workforce than it does to look after a well paid workforce. Healthcare costs are ultimately higher when lower wages result in people forgoing treatment of disease because they can't afford it, and they don't get healthy nutrition levels. This falls on tax-funded healthcare to deal with.

Low wage employers also have less robust benefit plans, and that offloads costs to our healthcare system.

I don't think people are making the connection here, and need to consider this without political blinders on.

Lower wages suck.
Of course lower wages suck ... just ask any wait staff at a restaurant ... but unlimited economic growth is a fantasy that we've bought too ... and that's the whole reason that we've got the cost of living that we have now that requires everyone make 6-figures ...

I understand what you are trying to point out ... my pushback is based on the fact that you're limiting the outlook by keeping the status quo ... we're getting to the end of the rope we starting braiding back in the 70s and it really looks like we're going to hanging from it in the next 20 years ...
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

Post by Gone_Fishin »

spooker wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 11:31 am
Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 10:21 am If we're trading workers in O&G into renewables at a much lower wage, but need to fund our social programs, we will have to make the lower waged person maintain those programs with his taxes. Where do you think money comes from to run government programs?

Moreover, it costs more to look after a lower waged workforce than it does to look after a well paid workforce. Healthcare costs are ultimately higher when lower wages result in people forgoing treatment of disease because they can't afford it, and they don't get healthy nutrition levels. This falls on tax-funded healthcare to deal with.

Low wage employers also have less robust benefit plans, and that offloads costs to our healthcare system.

I don't think people are making the connection here, and need to consider this without political blinders on.

Lower wages suck.
Of course lower wages suck ... just ask any wait staff at a restaurant ... but unlimited economic growth is a fantasy that we've bought too ... and that's the whole reason that we've got the cost of living that we have now that requires everyone make 6-figures ...

I understand what you are trying to point out ... my pushback is based on the fact that you're limiting the outlook by keeping the status quo ... we're getting to the end of the rope we starting braiding back in the 70s and it really looks like we're going to hanging from it in the next 20 years ...
So you think lower wages are the answer? Works for China, but developed economies can't go back.

You postulate that we're near the end of the rope, but there's no evidence to support that. The biggest threat is stifling debt from uncontrolled spending in Ottawa, but we can change that and improve our futures by getting rid of debt mongers who are driving inflation to the moon.
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spooker
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Re: "Just Transition" - a Plan to Create Poverty

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Gone_Fishin wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 11:57 am So you think lower wages are the answer? Works for China, but developed economies can't go back.

You postulate that we're near the end of the rope, but there's no evidence to support that. The biggest threat is stifling debt from uncontrolled spending in Ottawa, but we can change that and improve our futures by getting rid of debt mongers who are driving inflation to the moon.
Not sure how you read that I said lower wages are the answer ... you compared taxes with different wages and then went further with that discussion ... scrolling back all I said was "lower wages suck"

As for the "end of the rope" ... a very good analysis came out not too long ago ...
A new study by a director of one of the world's largest accounting firms, KPMG, reveals that a 1972 model by MIT researchers predicting the collapse of society in the 21st century looks to be worryingly on track, a report by Vice explains.
https://interestingengineering.com/mit- ... l-on-track
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