Proportional Representation

nepal
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Proportional Representation

Post by nepal »

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What happened to the idea of implementing Proportional Representation as a method of distributing votes, so that decision outcomes are shared by more than one party?
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Maybe Proportional Representation would result in more balanced decisions, or maybe not…

Perhaps our current First Past The Post system, results in too much power going to winning party?

Pros & Cons of PR:
https://vittana.org/12-proportional-rep ... s-and-cons

Our current legislator setup:
https://www.ourcommons.ca/marleaumontpe ... Ch04&Seq=2

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JagXKR
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by JagXKR »

I've never understood the argument for Proportional Representation, for one reason only.
How are the people going to work together when they do not work together now? Somehow there will be a complete 180 shift in politics? They are going to get anything done? :135:
A complete shift over to a new system that is untested. At a time which we need strong government to get us out of MASSIVE debt. Ridiculous. [icon_lol2.gif]
Ideologies of the extreme right (PPC) and extreme left (Green/NDP) working together? :smt045
What a nutjob scenario. Absolutely crazy to think that such polar opposites would ever get anything done. :crazy:
We are not a small country with 1 or 2 time zones. We are a vast nation separated by vast differences in ideology, culture, customs and even language.
Let's see a Province try it out before we go national. If it works in one area maybe, unlikely, it could work across the country.
I feel I will be long spread across a mountain top before that happens.
And I have decades to go. :up:
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by The Green Barbarian »

JagXKR wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 11:29 am I've never understood the argument for Proportional Representation, for one reason only.
How are the people going to work together when they do not work together now? Somehow there will be a complete 180 shift in politics? They are going to get anything done? :135:
A complete shift over to a new system that is untested. At a time which we need strong government to get us out of MASSIVE debt. Ridiculous. [icon_lol2.gif]
Ideologies of the extreme right (PPC) and extreme left (Green/NDP) working together? :smt045
What a nutjob scenario. Absolutely crazy to think that such polar opposites would ever get anything done. :crazy:
We are not a small country with 1 or 2 time zones. We are a vast nation separated by vast differences in ideology, culture, customs and even language.
Let's see a Province try it out before we go national. If it works in one area maybe, unlikely, it could work across the country.
I feel I will be long spread across a mountain top before that happens.
And I have decades to go. :up:
One of the dumbest examples of proportional representation was Belgium last year. They couldn't get a functioning government put together so they were months behind everyone else in coming up with a COVID plan. Just nonsensical.
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by spooker »

It might be better to look at NZ as a good example of what PR can accomplish ... almost 50% of the countries in the world use a form of PR

It'd be nice in that it would generate a more even governance in that most decisions have to follow a more moderate outcome to get things accomplished outside of a single majority party ... wild swings in goals end up wasting money, for that you just have to look south almost every 8-years ...

Yes, I was *bleep* when the mangled messaging here in BC defeated it and then the Liberals yanked it off the federal table ...
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by rustled »

JagXKR wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 11:29 am I've never understood the argument for Proportional Representation, for one reason only.
How are the people going to work together when they do not work together now? Somehow there will be a complete 180 shift in politics? They are going to get anything done? :135:
Exactly - seems to me they'd be more prone to making all sorts of backroom deals between themselves. We need better representatives, not more of them. Re-drawing the lines won't solve the difficulty already experienced in the rural ridings.

IMO we'd get more bang for our buck if we leave the ridings alone and use a single transferable vote using a ranked ballot - just mark down your first choice and if you have a second choice, third choice, etc. indicate those preferences as well.

A ranked ballot in this election would allow the electorate in our riding to show more clearly that they prefer the policies of the PPC (1st choice) but are voting CPC (2nd choice) to get rid of the LPC. Or, that they prefer the policies of the Greens (1st choice) but are voting NDP (2nd choice) because they prefer the NDP incumbent over the nearest rival CPC candidate.

The number of first choice ballots for an unlikely candidate would show more clearly what people participating in the democracy value.
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JagXKR
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by JagXKR »

spooker wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 1:23 pm It might be better to look at NZ as a good example of what PR can accomplish ... almost 50% of the countries in the world use a form of PR

It'd be nice in that it would generate a more even governance in that most decisions have to follow a more moderate outcome to get things accomplished outside of a single majority party ... wild swings in goals end up wasting money, for that you just have to look south almost every 8-years ...

Yes, I was *bleep* when the mangled messaging here in BC defeated it and then the Liberals yanked it off the federal table ...
NZ? So just discard all the facts I stated about size etc? BC is 3x larger than NZ. Most countries that have some sort of PR are small, 1 or 2 time zone countries. If you can't figure out why a large country with all the massive differences I previously stated will not work then there is NO help and you will be forever "bleep", as you put it.
Too bad that the obvious can't get into the heads of the PR promoters. It will not work in Canada and it will never be implemented as long as I live.
Thankfully!
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Re: Proportional Representation

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JagXKR wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 11:29 am I've never understood the argument for Proportional Representation, for one reason only.
How are the people going to work together when they do not work together now? Somehow there will be a complete 180 shift in politics? They are going to get anything done? :135:
:up:
We already have five parties with seats in Ottawa, and our minority government is being led around at times by just one of those parties.
Imagine a few more parties sitting in Ottawa, and the party that wants to rule has to cave in to a fringe party to get the required number of votes.
No thank you.

And didn't we vote on this three times in BC? Turned down ever time.

Go away.
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JagXKR
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by JagXKR »

bb49 wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 2:46 pm And didn't we vote on this three times in BC? Turned down ever time.

Go away.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by my5cents »

I'm not saying proportional representation or any form of government or electing of same would be better, but my question is: How would we implement even the exploration and subsequent vote on a change ?

Would we make that an election issue ?

You know, "If elected the ...... party will implement a study on election reform.....and we will abide by the people's decision."

Seems like someone said that,,, got elected and then said, "nope not doing that". and..... the media, the public, the opposition and other parties,,, what did they do ??? crickets. Hey we were so stupid we elected the same clown after that election.

Such a major promise and then such a direct refusal to proceed with the promise. Shouldn't that get someone's attention ?

Nope, ya see that's the beauty of politics, elections and the electorate, crowd amnesia. Like a crying child, divert their attention and the issue is all forgotten. The irony is, children grow up, they learn, apparently the electorate doesn't.

So short of overtaking the government by force, what do we do. Political promises don't mean a thing, but we (as a society) listen to them and make voting decision based on them. Isn't that the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result ?
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by spooker »

JagXKR wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 2:40 pm
spooker wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 1:23 pm It might be better to look at NZ as a good example of what PR can accomplish ... almost 50% of the countries in the world use a form of PR

It'd be nice in that it would generate a more even governance in that most decisions have to follow a more moderate outcome to get things accomplished outside of a single majority party ... wild swings in goals end up wasting money, for that you just have to look south almost every 8-years ...

Yes, I was *bleep* when the mangled messaging here in BC defeated it and then the Liberals yanked it off the federal table ...
NZ? So just discard all the facts I stated about size etc? BC is 3x larger than NZ. Most countries that have some sort of PR are small, 1 or 2 time zone countries. If you can't figure out why a large country with all the massive differences I previously stated will not work then there is NO help and you will be forever "bleep", as you put it.
Too bad that the obvious can't get into the heads of the PR promoters. It will not work in Canada and it will never be implemented as long as I live.
Thankfully!
What does size have to do with anything? (notwithstanding what a friend's girlfriend asked me once back in the days when we were young and inexperienced) ... The EU uses PR and they have almost 450 million people, they have 3 time zones ... Germany has 84 million people but only 1 time zone ... if time zones are so detrimental how is that our parliament sits 3 hours away from us and we don't cry foul?

As for whack job parties, that's the whole point of PR ... getting a consensus everyone has a say into, even the off-sides ... right now without seats at the table they have to work harder to get any reaction ... if the outliers could have a seat at the table maybe they wouldn't be trying to splinter existing groups as much as they are ...
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JagXKR
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by JagXKR »

spooker wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 3:37 pm What does size have to do with anything? (notwithstanding what a friend's girlfriend asked me once back in the days when we were young and inexperienced) ... The EU uses PR and they have almost 450 million people, they have 3 time zones ... Germany has 84 million people but only 1 time zone ... if time zones are so detrimental how is that our parliament sits 3 hours away from us and we don't cry foul?

As for whack job parties, that's the whole point of PR ... getting a consensus everyone has a say into, even the off-sides ... right now without seats at the table they have to work harder to get any reaction ... if the outliers could have a seat at the table maybe they wouldn't be trying to splinter existing groups as much as they are ...
Wow. No real understanding of the size of a country and how that works against government. :dash:
As was said before, tried 3 times and voted down each time. :dash:
Do you think we are Quebec? Try over and over and over ...... dash -> infinity
Why use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.
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spooker
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by spooker »

JagXKR wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 5:58 pm
spooker wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 3:37 pm What does size have to do with anything? (notwithstanding what a friend's girlfriend asked me once back in the days when we were young and inexperienced) ... The EU uses PR and they have almost 450 million people, they have 3 time zones ... Germany has 84 million people but only 1 time zone ... if time zones are so detrimental how is that our parliament sits 3 hours away from us and we don't cry foul?

As for whack job parties, that's the whole point of PR ... getting a consensus everyone has a say into, even the off-sides ... right now without seats at the table they have to work harder to get any reaction ... if the outliers could have a seat at the table maybe they wouldn't be trying to splinter existing groups as much as they are ...
Wow. No real understanding of the size of a country and how that works against government. :dash:
As was said before, tried 3 times and voted down each time. :dash:
Do you think we are Quebec? Try over and over and over ...... dash -> infinity
Even though there are larger examples you're still saying it won't work? time zones? isn't that problem a little outdated with today's technology?

The last vote was a perfect example of how to confuse people ... wasn't here for the first one and the second one was quite anemic ... we get what we set as a priority ... status quo it is ... who wants to expend more energy than we absolutely have to eh?
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by Drip_Torch »

Cool, so the party that currently has 2% more votes has 38 less seats and far less power than the party that won tonight. (By the way, that really wasn't the liberals.)

Imagine what a cluster :cuss: the next four years would be if the liberals had to negotiate with the conservatives rather than the NDP.

I'm warming up to first-past-the-post.

:yahoo:
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by Vacancyrate »

Drip_Torch wrote: Sep 20th, 2021, 11:52 pm I'm warming up to first-past-the-post.
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by roseridge »

Rigged election. Look at how many seats Atlantic Canada has in proportion to population, 32 seats! That means someone in Atlantic Canada is essentially casting 2.3 votes, and each person in Quebec is casting 1.4 votes! Where did representation by population go? If the conservatives had 34.3% of the popular vote, and 35.8% of seats in 2019, and 34.1% of the popular vote, and 35.8% of seats in 2021; The liberals had 33.1% of the popular vote and 46.4% of seats in 2019, and 31.8% of the popular vote and 46.2% of seats in 2021 - it means the election is rigged, and Justin Trudeau has been the illegitimate prime minister of Canada since 2019, and Canadians should rise up and demand the results of the election be overturned, and Justin Trudeau removed from office! In any other country this would create a constitutional crisis. Time to move to proportional representation.

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