Proportional Representation

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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by The Green Barbarian »

hobbyguy wrote: Sep 24th, 2021, 8:04 pm The only electoral system change I could support is STV (single transferable vote) coupled with campaign and party financing reform.
Isn't that what Justin wanted? After the bi-partisan committee said that this was just self-serving garbage that the Liberals wanted?
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

"Mr. Trudeau, you are a disgrace to any democracy. Please spare us your presence" - European Union addressing the sad sack of **** that is currently our PM.
hobbyguy
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by hobbyguy »

The Green Barbarian wrote: Sep 28th, 2021, 11:21 am
hobbyguy wrote: Sep 24th, 2021, 8:04 pm The only electoral system change I could support is STV (single transferable vote) coupled with campaign and party financing reform.
Isn't that what Justin wanted? After the bi-partisan committee said that this was just self-serving garbage that the Liberals wanted?
No ya silly goose. There was a multiparty committee to reach consensus on what should be proposed to Canadians. The CPC, in their usual obstructionist fashion, sabotaged it. Face it, the CPC is toast without vote splitting in a progressive country. Nobody else will dance with them (halitosis?) and the CPC would be shut out forever under PR - so they obstructed, filibustered, and generally sabotaged the effort.

Trudeau correctly realizes that imposing electoral "top down" on Canadians is NOT right. That the CPC sabotaged the correct kind of process is on the CPC clown car, not Trudeau.

None of them wanted campaign and party finance reform. It doesn't matter a whit if you have electoral reform and do NOT chop the heck out the big money industry that politics has become - you would just get more gaming and nonsense. And I don't mean Horgan's nonsense "get big money out of politics" which he switched to having taxpayers pay the salaries of the hordes of "back room boys and girls". I mean something like parties being limited to $10 per month in donations per person, no corporate or union donations, and Elections Canada actually running the campaign mechanism so anyone can run - not just rich lawyers and old money types. None of this garbage like insisting on $300K to be allowed to run for party leader.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
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The Green Barbarian
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Re: Proportional Representation

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hobbyguy wrote: Sep 28th, 2021, 8:19 pm

No ya silly goose.
Yes ya silly goose.
There was a multiparty committee to reach consensus on what should be proposed to Canadians.
Finally - some truth. Yes, on this we can agree.
The CPC, in their usual obstructionist fashion, sabotaged it.
And back we go to the lies. Sigh....
Face it, the CPC is toast without vote splitting in a progressive country.
Oh good grief, back to this "progressive country" BS. Canada is not some zombie-like automaton country that willingly votes for dumb regressive garbage. I realize that this is the myth that those that love communism want to keep peddling, but you look like such fools doing it.
Nobody else will dance with them (halitosis?)
Dumb.
and the CPC would be shut out forever under PR -
Nonsense.
so they obstructed, filibustered, and generally sabotaged the effort.
And more lies.
Trudeau correctly realizes that imposing electoral "top down" on Canadians is NOT right.
What that scumbag "realized" was that someone was calling him on his BS promise on electoral reform. And so he had his minions pull the plug. This is all on the scumbag Justin, no one else, no matter what the BS history revision that happens now.
That the CPC sabotaged the correct kind of process is on the CPC clown car, not Trudeau.
Nope, it's all on the "clown car" Liberals, those guys that hopped in bed with the Chinese communist party, and still lost the election. The Liberals just plain suck.
How Trudeau lost his way on electoral reform

In an alternate universe, Justin Trudeau wasn't standing before the cameras on Tuesday, trying again to explain why he had walked away from a campaign commitment to pursue electoral reform.

Because during June 2015 in that alternate universe, Trudeau had stood before the cameras and vowed that a Liberal government would implement a ranked ballot for electing MPs.

Alas, in reality, Trudeau made an open-ended commitment to reform and vowed it would be in place for 2019. A committee was struck to study the issue, dozens of town hall forums were convened, an online survey was conducted and postcards were mailed to millions of households inviting Canadians to participate.

Only then did Trudeau's government walk away. But only then did Trudeau publicly confront the actual possibilities for reform.

And, as it turns out, his preference for a ranked ballot and his opposition to proportional representation, first stated in 2012, were left standing.

SNIP

Perhaps even more crucially, it is believed that a ranked ballot could benefit the Liberal Party, as a conceivably second-choice for NDP and Conservative votes — the NDP-aligned Broadbent Institute effectively poisoned the chalice in December 2015 when it released an analysis suggesting the Liberals would have won 217 seats had that year's election been conducted under a ranked ballot.

"The NDP were anchored in proportional representation as being the only way forward, and I have been consistent and crystal clear from the beginning of my political career — you can look at the speeches I made here in Ottawa at the convention in 2012 or debates I had onstage, particularly in Halifax during the Liberal leadership — where I think proportional representation would be bad for our country," Trudeau said.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudea ... -1.4179928
Last edited by The Green Barbarian on Sep 29th, 2021, 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

"Mr. Trudeau, you are a disgrace to any democracy. Please spare us your presence" - European Union addressing the sad sack of **** that is currently our PM.
nepal
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by nepal »

Germany recently held their federal election. It’s interesting to see their modified proportional coalition system.
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nucksRnum1
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by nucksRnum1 »

nepal wrote: Sep 29th, 2021, 10:13 am Germany recently held their federal election. It’s interesting to see their modified proportional coalition system.
Seems Complicated
hobbyguy
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Re: Proportional Representation

Post by hobbyguy »

Yup, the German system, like most PR systems. relies on party lists of political insiders who never face the voters. Any system that utilizes "party lists" is junk in my opinion.

If you have a representative who is bad news, like say Bev Oda or Ramesh Sangha or Erin Weir, instead of getting sent to political wasteland, parties can "hide" them on "party lists".

One of the arguments made for PR is that it makes government more diverse and elects more women. The % of women representatives in Germany is pretty much bang on with the % of women MPs in Canada.

Trudeau's sometimes denigrated "gender balanced" cabinet has worked to propel more women into the upper echelons of the power structure. Some of those women could easily challenge for party leadership and be favorites to win.

Our last election now has 8 LGBTQ2S+ MPs - giving it even more diversity.

More and more when see pictures of elected MPs we see all backgrounds of MPs elected: https://www.hilltimes.com/2021/09/21/mi ... ent/318533

In essence, as the parties themselves seek out more diverse candidates (it just makes political sense) we get closer and closer to the diversity of backgrounds that makes up the mosaic of Canada.

You don't need PR to get diversity of representation, just a society that accepts it and wants it. Overall Canadians have adopted that acceptance and desire - and it is coming to pass.

As I have said before, I can see the point of STV in the context of full political system reform, but not MMP systems, which tend to bog things down and entrench party insiders who actually represent no one, and can not be "fired" by the voters.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.

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