Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14046
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

erinmore3775 wrote: Nov 11th, 2021, 9:22 am The current divisions around the "Vaccine Caucus" and some of the shadow cabinet appointments continue to muddy the waters for Mr O'Toole and the CPC. Moderate, small "c" conservatives, like myself, have lost faith with Mr O'Toole and the recent election, which was theirs to loose and they did, affirms this fact.

"Voters didn’t trust O’Toole with a winning mandate in the October election, partly because they were confused about his chameleon shifts from hard-right leadership candidate to middle-ground new leader to full-on moderate hopeful campaigning for the prime minister’s job.

He can’t afford to muddy about on the final push to end the pandemic by tolerating anti-vaccination sympathizers and supporters inside a Conservative team that MUST lead the country by MP example."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/don-mar ... -1.5658615

It is time for Mr O'Toole to use his homegrown military leadership skills to take a solid position. Constant flip flops are not the way to go! Expel the anti-vaxxers from caucus, define a clear environmental policy, and outline fiscal budget expectations before the new Parliament sits. If you cannot do that, GO ERIN GO and allow someone else with true leadership skill take your place.
O'Toole is not that guy. Clarity is not his thing, he would rather try for all sides of every issue. Here is O'Toole smiling with "Mr. Ivermectin": https://pressprogress.ca/conservative-m ... -covid-19/

It will be interesting to see how many CPC MPs show up in person when parliament opens. It was very nice of Trudeau to give O'Toole and the dumb dumbs enough time to get out of this hole, but the dumb dumbs kept digging and O'Toole chose not to take away their shovels.

Given that this issue is very much stacked against the CPC in public opinion, this can only exacerbate the splits within the CPC.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by crookedmember »

A "leader" who can't competently control his own party isn't going to be competent at the helm of a country.

O'Toole and Scheer were both elected by special interests for their malleability.

They're not leaders. One was too stupid to pass the insurance agent's test, and the other looks and acts like Elmer Fudd.
All posts 100% moderator approved!
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14046
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 12th, 2021, 7:35 am A "leader" who can't competently control his own party isn't going to be competent at the helm of a country.

O'Toole and Scheer were both elected by special interests for their malleability.

They're not leaders. One was too stupid to pass the insurance agent's test, and the other looks and acts like Elmer Fudd.
Can't say as I view either one of them as stupid. Don't view either as real leaders though. Not everybody has that correct mix of skills and talents to be a high level leader.

Even then, those skills and talents have be the right mix in context of the times. Winston Churchill was the "right person" for a period of time in context, but not so much for the peace time that followed.

Another time, another place and context, and either of them could look a lot better.

The current period of time is pretty tough to navigate. I don't think anyone was prepared for the amplification of the worst in us that social media has amplified and cultivated. The mentality of things that are currently happening in world is very difficult to navigate when so many have "siloed" their thinking, information input, and become intolerant because of that. Social media seems to reward the outrageous and shallow, while denigrating the tolerant compromises that required to keep a society functioning are its optimum.

I do think O'Toole is trying, but doesn't seem to have the right mix for the job - but perhaps he can surprise. The next 3-6 months with tell the tale.

The mix of factions within the CPC may be irreconcilable precisely because of the situation where folks have become so stuck in their silos.

The Liberals have pressure relief outlets in the NDP and another in the Bloc and so are less factional. That situation applies to both the Bloc and the NDP as well. All three can "bleed" absolutists and extremists to other parties. That may be why the leadership situations in those parties seems more stable - although part of that equation is that the constituents of those parties are more willing to find workable compromises.

Where we are seeing instability and infighting is within the CPC and the within the Green party. In both situations they have not had the luxury of a little bit of healthy bleeding to other parties - and have the most uncompromising constituencies. The various absolutist factions within the CPC have always been a bit of an unholy alliance, and I find it difficult to see a way forward to a compromise between them. The anti-choice bunch do not compromise. The gun nut bunch do not compromise. The anti-vaxxers are impossible. The climate change deniers are locked in. The neo-liberal economics business bunch - well they will take on anything that feeds their wallets.

The rise of the PPC, and the emergence of the Mavericks may indeed give the CPC the kinds of outlets they need. But are they willing to give up on "winning" as the goal and build a new vision?
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by crookedmember »

hobbyguy wrote: Nov 12th, 2021, 8:59 am

Can't say as I view either one of them as stupid.

But they have been defeated three times now by someone our misguided and deluded friends on the right routinely claim is stupid.

While not stupid in the traditional sense, they do lack Trudeau's analytical campaign skills and his unflappable temperament.

When their campaigns fell off the cliff, both resorted to name calling and making it personal

That's how kids, not adults, behave.

If Scheer and O'Toole are the best that party has to offer, they are in deep ****.
All posts 100% moderator approved!
User avatar
The Green Barbarian
Insanely Prolific
Posts: 68477
Joined: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:13 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by The Green Barbarian »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 12th, 2021, 9:47 am
But they have been defeated three times now by someone our misguided and deluded friends on the right routinely claim is stupid.
I don't know who is "right" but I don't think Jagmeet is stupid. He's a nice guy who cries too often when doing speeches, but he seems pretty bright.

But so does Erin. He's a great leader doing a really good job.
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

"Mr. Trudeau, you are a disgrace to any democracy. Please spare us your presence" - European Union addressing the sad sack of **** that is currently our PM.
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14046
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 12th, 2021, 9:47 am
hobbyguy wrote: Nov 12th, 2021, 8:59 am

Can't say as I view either one of them as stupid.

But they have been defeated three times now by someone our misguided and deluded friends on the right routinely claim is stupid.

While not stupid in the traditional sense, they do lack Trudeau's analytical campaign skills and his unflappable temperament.

When their campaigns fell off the cliff, both resorted to name calling and making it personal

That's how kids, not adults, behave.

If Scheer and O'Toole are the best that party has to offer, they are in deep ****.
It is neither O'Toole's nor Scheer's fault that the CPC did not win a plurality of ridings. Party leaders are partly a reflection of what the base wants. In O'Toole's case, that was unclear, and that lack of clarity is at the root of the problem. "True blue" Scheer was never going to win but was clear in following what the base wants (and did very slightly better).

Winning a plurality of the ridings ought not be the raison d'etre for any political party. Yes, there will always be pols for whom that is the only worthwhile goal, but purpose of representative democracy is to represent. If the only goal is "winning" what is the point beyond the enhancement of the personal fortunes/egos of pols?

Arguably, both the Bloc and the NDP do well because they express a different vision for the future. Not one that can win over enough constituencies nationally to win a plurality of ridings, but one that represents a significant constituency world view. Also arguably, collectively the Bloc and NDP effectively prevent any other party from running amok with a plurality "win". Within that, the Bloc and the NDP seem to be adept at empowering those visions through effective constructive criticism and influencing the compromises of national government. The three parties currently in a position to really empower their constituencies are the Bloc, the NDP and the Liberals. That situation is likely to persist for the foreseeable future as the likelihood of majority governments appears slim. I really don't think Canadians want to see majority governments anymore.

The CPC needs to wrap their collective heads around that. Opposition for the sake of opposition, "the resistance", is cooking their goose and NOT empowering their constituencies - the latter being the most important part. Everyday Canadians generally don't care about the noisy nonsense of political theater that has permeated the official opposition - and in fact are turned off by it. Everyday Canadians just want government that focuses on competency and making their lives better.

How O'Toole - or anyone - can accomplish that turn for the CPC is going to be interesting for political junkies like me, but until the CPC can figure how to empower constituencies that want to improve our governance, they are dead ducks and unable to properly serve their constituency.

The landscape of the CPC is pretty complex and full of paradoxes. I look at Sohi and Gondek winning the mayor races in Calgary and Edmonton and see a wide gulf between what they express, and what the CPC expresses - yet the CPC does well in both cities. But will that last? If I think about Iveson to Sohi, and Nemshi to Gondek, the direction doesn't match what the CPC are expressing. So which is the future? The federal or city representation?
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
crookedmember
Banned
Posts: 2872
Joined: Jan 8th, 2011, 9:43 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by crookedmember »

erinmore3775 wrote: Nov 9th, 2021, 8:28 am https://cfjctoday.com/2021/11/09/otoole ... -included/

The embattled CPC leader, Mr O'Toole, has announced his Opposition shadow cabinet. Significant omissions are Lewis and Gladu . . .

My guess is O'Toole needs Lewis and Gladu to continue to share core CPC messages with Facebook groups.

But looking at O'Toole's shadow cabinet of 49 (to shadow 39 REAL ministers!) it doesn't look like there's a lot of talent or intelligence there.

In fact, the only difference I can see between O'Toole's cabinet and an IKEA cabinet is the IKEA cabinet isn't full of loose screws.
All posts 100% moderator approved!
User avatar
The Green Barbarian
Insanely Prolific
Posts: 68477
Joined: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:13 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by The Green Barbarian »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm
But looking at O'Toole's shadow cabinet of 49 (to shadow 39 REAL ministers!) it doesn't look like there's a lot of talent or intelligence there.
.
On the contrary, given it's the Conservatives, there's a lot of intelligence there, so much more than the idiotic children they are opposing. The CPC are definitely far more intelligent than any of the other parties, and are doing a fantastic job. Keep up the great work - you guys are our only real hope against the tyranny and evil scum of the Liberals and NDP. :up:
Justin Trudeau- racist, elitist, liar. What a sick piece of garbage.

"Mr. Trudeau, you are a disgrace to any democracy. Please spare us your presence" - European Union addressing the sad sack of **** that is currently our PM.
User avatar
Pappywinkle
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13723
Joined: Nov 7th, 2019, 10:52 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by Pappywinkle »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm
But looking at O'Toole's shadow cabinet of 49 (to shadow 39 REAL ministers!) it doesn't look like there's a lot of talent or intelligence there.
.
This is so true. And even with it being conservatives, it still turned out to be surprisingly disappointing. The CPC truly are the craziest and most divided party, and represent all of the most un-Canadian values. But with the conservatives so busy fighting amongst themselves over various right wing conspiracies the other parties can govern without the blabbering children from the CPC. As long as the CPC is busy imploding, I say fantastic. Keep up the great work destroying the regressive and un-Canadian evil scum CPC!
Conservatives who spend all day, every day arguing with strangers on the internet are such embarrassing losers and truly just so dumb.

Some right wingers definitely have a secret folder full of naked Hunter Biden photos.
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14046
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm
erinmore3775 wrote: Nov 9th, 2021, 8:28 am https://cfjctoday.com/2021/11/09/otoole ... -included/

The embattled CPC leader, Mr O'Toole, has announced his Opposition shadow cabinet. Significant omissions are Lewis and Gladu . . .

My guess is O'Toole needs Lewis and Gladu to continue to share core CPC messages with Facebook groups.

But looking at O'Toole's shadow cabinet of 49 (to shadow 39 REAL ministers!) it doesn't look like there's a lot of talent or intelligence there.

In fact, the only difference I can see between O'Toole's cabinet and an IKEA cabinet is the IKEA cabinet isn't full of loose screws.
I would not be so fast make a judgements about "intelligence" when it comes to any political party. Intelligence comes in many forms, many of which are not classically recognized but are very real.

It is however, easier to assess things like the likelihood of intellectual agility and likelihood of having major blind-spots due to dogmatic approaches to thinking. On that one, I would suggest that CPC has a deficit there, in part because the Campaign Life Coalition bunch have pushed many otherwise marginal candidates into being candidates purely to support their fanatically dogmatic positions.

That dogmatic approach to thinking is always a deficit to intellectual agility (which is different from "intelligence") and is reflected in the way that the CPC policy outcomes have glaring blind-spots of intolerance. It is at the root of the factional nature of the CPC. In many ways that dogmatic approach has led the CPC to almost OCD like behaviors in terms of policy and positions - and is a partial explanation for the propensity of CPC MPs to go down conspiracy theory rabbit holes - which leads to the party taking positions that are out of touch with Canadians writ large.

I have not gone through the entire list of the CPC Shadow Cabinet, but one thing is very, very clear - O'Toole's appointments are based on what is good for O'Toole in the short term, and far less on competency.

In fact, if one were to convert the O'Toole Shadow Cabinet to actual governance - it becomes very questionable in terms of the ability to actually head up the large entities that government departments represent. Within it are many people who little or no relevant experience/education in running any large organization and seem to have only the qualification of being O'Toole supporters during the leadership race. Someone who ran a coffee shop that failed and has no post secondary education as a "candidate" for a cabinet position to run a large government department? Not impossible that they would succeed - but pretty darn unlikely - and seems only to have gotten the position by publicly supporting O'Toole.

The nature of O'Toole's shadow cabinet appears very factional - and especially so when one looks at who is left out. One CPC MP I have been watching is Michael Kram - initially because the guy had the chops to defeat Ralph Goodale, but also because he has a pretty good CV. Nowhere to be seen in the O'Toole shadow cabinet. His omission raises an eyebrow when a former owner of a failed coffee shop with no post secondary education is "in". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kram
I would have thought that an MP who was able to increase his vote tally in a former Liberal stronghold, even with the PPC nibbling away, and in an urban setting (where the CPC struggles) would have been ideal appointment to shadow cabinet for the CPC.

It really looks like O'Toole is more concerned with building up his "faction" rather than crafting a shadow cabinet that can really assume the mantle of "government in waiting" - and that's a mistake for the future of CPC electoral success.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
hobbyguy
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14046
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011, 8:10 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conser ... -1.6249440

"Conservative senator launches petition to oust Erin O'Toole as leader"

Conservative Saskatchewan Sen. Denise Batters has launched a petition to oust Erin O'Toole as party leader — a high-profile effort by a caucus member who said she lost faith in O'Toole after the Conservative Party suffered "significant losses" in the last campaign.

In announcing her petition, Batters said that on O'Toole's watch, the party has flip-flopped on major issues such as carbon pricing, firearms and conscience rights and has lost once-Conservative seats in urban and suburban ridings in Alberta, B.C. and the Greater Toronto Area.

While O'Toole campaigned as a "true blue" Conservative in the party's leadership race, Batters said he subsequently ran a federal election campaign "nearly indistinguishable from Trudeau's Liberals."

SNIP

"Mr. O'Toole flip-flopped on policies core to our party within the same week, the same day, and even within the same sentence. The members didn't have a say on that, but we must have one on his leadership," Batters said in a media statement."
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.
User avatar
erinmore3775
Übergod
Posts: 1714
Joined: Aug 18th, 2010, 9:16 pm

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by erinmore3775 »

Saskatchewan Senator Denise Batters has launched a petition for an immediate review of the leadership of Erin O'Toole and his policies during the recent election.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRtggAb8fbY

As usual for the CPC party over the last ten years, if they did not get what they wanted, they took out the knives and prepared for self amputation. This is not the time for the Party to gut itself. It is a time to group together. It is a time to put internal squabbles aside and develop policies and criticisms that will hold the current government to good governance.

If the Party continues to rely on finding scandals, assigning blame, and continuing with their name calling and bullying tactics they will assign their Party to irrevelance on the Canadian political scene. Continuing to play on the self-immolation playground means that centralist social conservatives will loose a political voice. The current government continues to outflank them especially on the child care front with the signing of the new Alberta child care agreement.

The CPC now find themselves in a predicament. If they follow the chant GO ERIN GO, and he GOES, the Party will disintegrate. If ERIN STAYS it means they must drop the knives and work together. Kenny and Alberta has seen it can accomplish more and provide better service to its citizens when it decides to co-operate and collaborate. That does not mean that they have abandoned positions, it just means they have seen the benefits of lowering the volatile rhetoric, ceasing the blame game, working together. It is time that senior members of the CPC and the Parliamentary Caucus to get the co-operative message.
We can’t fight homelessness, hunger, or poverty, but we can fight climate change. The juxtaposition of the now and the future, food for thought.

"You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give." - Winston Churchill
bob vernon
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4069
Joined: Oct 27th, 2008, 10:37 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by bob vernon »

Erin is from back east and is a wishy-washy, middle of the spectrum PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE, whatever that means. Senator Batters is from Saskatchewan and is from the REFORM branch of the spectrum and those western Reformers just can't stand for O'Toole trying to drag the party to the middle. O'Toole even wanted a carbon tax. What's this party coming to? Turning Green?

Peter McKay? He's another soft eastern Progressive Conservative who inherited his seat in the Commons and then sold out the party to Steve and the Reformers. The westerners had their leader in Scheer. How did that work out? Then the easterners had O'Toole and that was about the same. Is it time for the two parties to leave each other behind? There's a term for parties who split and leave each other. They are a "rump" and that term applies here.
User avatar
Pappywinkle
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13723
Joined: Nov 7th, 2019, 10:52 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by Pappywinkle »

hobbyguy wrote: Nov 15th, 2021, 10:09 am https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conser ... -1.6249440

"Conservative senator launches petition to oust Erin O'Toole as leader"

Conservative Saskatchewan Sen. Denise Batters has launched a petition to oust Erin O'Toole as party leader — a high-profile effort by a caucus member who said she lost faith in O'Toole after the Conservative Party suffered "significant losses" in the last campaign.

In announcing her petition, Batters said that on O'Toole's watch, the party has flip-flopped on major issues such as carbon pricing, firearms and conscience rights and has lost once-Conservative seats in urban and suburban ridings in Alberta, B.C. and the Greater Toronto Area.

While O'Toole campaigned as a "true blue" Conservative in the party's leadership race, Batters said he subsequently ran a federal election campaign "nearly indistinguishable from Trudeau's Liberals."

SNIP

"Mr. O'Toole flip-flopped on policies core to our party within the same week, the same day, and even within the same sentence. The members didn't have a say on that, but we must have one on his leadership," Batters said in a media statement."
Wow. Even people within the CPC acknowledge that O'Toole's many embarrassing flip flops are disastrous for the party, and rightly so! How embarrassing for anyone who propped up O'Toole. And what an embarrassing time to be a conservative!
Conservatives who spend all day, every day arguing with strangers on the internet are such embarrassing losers and truly just so dumb.

Some right wingers definitely have a secret folder full of naked Hunter Biden photos.
featfan
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4058
Joined: Jul 21st, 2005, 11:48 am

Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by featfan »

Yes Denise Batters.
Go hard and fast to get the tool to retire.
And coming from a Senator that he can't fire.
Priceless.

Return to “Canada”