Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by hobbyguy »

fluffy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 9:19 am
crookedmember wrote: Oct 11th, 2021, 5:17 pm The Reform/Alliance CPC can either split in two, or continue to be the Loser's Club indefinitely.
But politics is politics, and one big losers' club has a better chance of gaining power than two little losers' clubs. The trouble for the CPC is that they are a single losers' club in name only, their reality is that they are still two losers' parties fighting each other for control.
The focus on "winners and losers" is part of the political problem facing our democracies.

It really has risen to new height in the age of "professional politicians" and an industry of politics - those who set out from the very beginning to make politics a career and practice the arts of manipulation and strategic corruption as taught by "political science". In many ways the theater of politics has become a purely Machiavellian play of self interest.

There is nothing wrong with a party that attempts to represent somewhat disparate viewpoints - the only question is whether or not there is sufficient overlap to find a set of common ground that is sufficient to hold itself together. Obviously a hypothetical Communist party would find little positive overlap with a neo-liberal capitalist far right party (with the possible exception of power lust - the place where Stalin meets Mussolini).

Nor is there anything wrong with those somewhat disparate viewpoints forming distinct smaller parties. In the case of the smaller parties, it gives voice to much more clearly elucidated viewpoints and a clearer understanding of the strength of more individualized viewpoints - and arguably gives more people a "political home".

There is no question that there are significant overlaps in viewpoint between the current NDP, Green, Liberal and Bloc parties. Between them, and somewhat on an issue by issue basis and compromises, they have functioned as generalist coalition - yet each expresses a differing positioning such that many people find "political homes" within them. If you tried to amalgamate that workable "arrangement" into one party - it would be less expressive and inevitably contradictory.

A "united conservative" party assumes that there is only one major flavor of conservatism. I find that dubious. It ignores entirely the wide political spectrum that spans between Fascism, traditionalists, and progressive nationalists.

The concept of "political home" is important to think about. There are limits to compromise. Each of us has our own limits - lines we we will not cross as defining issues.

Israel has many more political parties than Canada. In the context of a COVID election we can compare. Israel got 67% turnout in 2021. Canada got 60%. Is that a reflection of more people having "political homes" in Israel??

In the early 1960s Canada achieved voter turnouts around 80%. There were two significant center to right wing parties and two significant center to left wing parties. Progressive Conservative and Social Credit, Liberal and NDP. Are we losing 10-20% of voter turnout because that many center to right wing voters have no "political home"???

In the end, the "winners and losers" discussion may be influenced by a lack of "political home" for too many Canadians. It has a corollary in the discussion of the "wasted votes" conundrum.

O'Toole tried a strategy of bringing the center to the united conservative CPC. It did not work. Scheer did the opposite, expressing the core CPC positions clearly and unapologetically. It did not work. In essence both wings of the party failed because of the other - and neither maximized its vote because too many are faced with "lines they won't cross" when looking at the mix.

The focus on "winning" is why the CPC exists. On the flip side, a PC-Reform coalition might indeed be able to "win", in the same way that the informal Liberal-NDP minority government has formed government. Where the Bloc would fall in the potential new mix would interesting, as the Bloc picks up a lot of right leaning voters who won't vote CPC based on "lines they won't cross" like gun control libertarianism.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 12:26 pm
The focus on "winners and losers" is part of the political problem facing our democracies.
Exactly. It's clear to anyone that the Liberals "lost" the last election, as they did in 2019. It's not just the CPC who needs to figure out things, all the parties need to, as they all lost. Big time.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 12:42 pm
hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 12:26 pm
The focus on "winners and losers" is part of the political problem facing our democracies.
Exactly. It's clear to anyone that the Liberals "lost" the last election, as they did in 2019. It's not just the CPC who needs to figure out things, all the parties need to, as they all lost. Big time.
You miss the point entirely.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:20 pm
You miss the point entirely.
Not really - we are in total agreement. All parties "lost" the last election, and so all have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what went wrong.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by TheLiteralKingofEngland »

The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:25 pm
hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:20 pm
You miss the point entirely.
Not really - we are in total agreement. All parties "lost" the last election, and so all have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what went wrong.
Except the Liberals won.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by The Green Barbarian »

TheLiteralKingofEngland wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:50 pm
Except the Liberals won.
in 2015, yes they did.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 4:05 pmin 2015, yes they did.
Correct. In 2019 and 2021 they only won control of the government.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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The Green Barbarian wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:25 pm
hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 3:20 pm
You miss the point entirely.
Not really - we are in total agreement. All parties "lost" the last election, and so all have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what went wrong.
My point is that do they indeed need to figure out what went wrong?

Each party and each MP has a constituency to represent. It is not about "wining and losing". The rest is just gaming the system.

If each party focuses not on the "winning/losing" nonsense, but on better representing their constituencies, then we will have better government. And that does not mean the partisan shenanigans that waste so much time in Ottawa, and indeed in many provincial governments.

Better government will give each party accomplishments to tout instead of all the negative nonsense and trash talking that we saw in the debates and campaigns.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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fluffy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 5:09 pm
Correct.
Thank you.

In 2019 and 2021 they only won control of the government.
Incorrect.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

Post by The Green Barbarian »

hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 5:41 pm

My point is that do they indeed need to figure out what went wrong?

Yup. As all parties "lost" the last election, all of them do indeed need to figure out what went wrong. You and I are in total agreement on this.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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I don't care about semantics. I only care that the conservatives have no power to make Canada a covid gong show. Or that their grubby hands are near our tax dollars. That way Canada cant become Alberta. Tons of covid - and 1.5 billion goes poof for a pipeline to nowhere.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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nucksRnum1 wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 8:51 pm I don't care about semantics. I only care that the conservatives have no power to make Canada a covid gong show.
That's the important part right there. Right wing politics does not hold the path to a better future. To be fair, the current Liberal regime isn't a whole lot better, but it is moving forward while conservatives are devoted to maintaining a flawed status quo.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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hobbyguy wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 12:26 pmThe focus on "winners and losers" is part of the political problem facing our democracies.

It really has risen to new height in the age of "professional politicians" and an industry of politics - those who set out from the very beginning to make politics a career and practice the arts of manipulation and strategic corruption as taught by "political science". In many ways the theater of politics has become a purely Machiavellian play of self interest.
We have our politicians, and ultimately ourselves, to thank for that. A popular strategy in politics these days can best be described as "manipulation". Politicians will seize on a perceived frustration or dissatisfaction shared by their target voters and amplify those feelings into anger, and then convince those voters that the politician's opponent is to blame and that the only solution is to "turf them and vote for me". These politicians know full well that an angry voter is not a thinking voter, and things like policy and addressing current issues loses weight in favour of "Let's get him!". The key to the success of this strategy is an ample supply of voters who choose voting in anger over voting with objective reason, and it doesn't say much for our society's current state of emotional development that the supply is, in fact, ample.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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nucksRnum1 wrote: Oct 12th, 2021, 8:51 pm I don't care about semantics. I only care that the conservatives have no power to make Canada a covid gong show.
It's already a COVID gong show, because the NDP let the Liberals get us there. Thank you NDP for being such great stewards. It's time for true adults to take over, and that means the child-like infantile Liberals are going to have to actually govern like adults for a change, or risk being actually forced into an election, instead of the imbecile PM being the one to call it.
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Re: Reform/Progressive Conservative crack forms

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fluffy wrote: Oct 13th, 2021, 6:46 am
That's the important part right there. Right wing politics does not hold the path to a better future.
Actually, it's Left wing politics that holds the path to a much dimmer, terrible future. A future we've seen play out in so many places. To think that the a flawed "status quo" of Leftist policies is going to help anyone, when it's been demonstrated over and over again that all that will occur is mass pain and suffering, is the ultimate in naivete, and just plain being a terrible person in general.
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