No EI for the unvaccinated

Beerhunter341
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Beerhunter341 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:09 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 5:48 amThe government and community isn't supporting anything. These people have paid into this program.
It's not a bank account, there's no little pile of money sitting somewhere with your name on it, waiting for you to request a withdrawal. It is supported by employees and and employers and is available to people who find themselves unemployed if they meet qualifying conditions. The discussion here is that if a worker refuses to abide by workplace health & safety rules are they subject to termination, and as such ineligible for EI benefits ? I say yes, putting your own agenda ahead of a group's safety concerns is wrong, and should not be encouraged. There may be a case made in support of people who have a legitimate medical condition that prohibits vaccination, or people working from home who will never have to show up at a workplace with other people, but those are exceptions that need to be dealt case-by-case. For the most part the vaccine resistant are doing so based on a political agenda, or unfounded fear of the vaccines, and these are not legitimate reasons.
You do recognize that denying people access to money to survive on will drive up crime and violence right? Is there an expectation that they will have to go on welfare or will they deny that too? People will steal to survive. Is that a world you are prepared to live in?
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by LANDM »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:35 am
fluffy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:09 am

It's not a bank account, there's no little pile of money sitting somewhere with your name on it, waiting for you to request a withdrawal. It is supported by employees and and employers and is available to people who find themselves unemployed if they meet qualifying conditions. The discussion here is that if a worker refuses to abide by workplace health & safety rules are they subject to termination, and as such ineligible for EI benefits ? I say yes, putting your own agenda ahead of a group's safety concerns is wrong, and should not be encouraged. There may be a case made in support of people who have a legitimate medical condition that prohibits vaccination, or people working from home who will never have to show up at a workplace with other people, but those are exceptions that need to be dealt case-by-case. For the most part the vaccine resistant are doing so based on a political agenda, or unfounded fear of the vaccines, and these are not legitimate reasons.
You do recognize that denying people access to money to survive on will drive up crime and violence right? Is there an expectation that they will have to go on welfare or will they deny that too? People will steal to survive. Is that a world you are prepared to live in?
EI is insurance, not a fund for access to money to survive for any reason. There is criteria that has not been met.
What people do when they voluntarily leave employment or get fired for cause is their problem, but that does not give carte blanche to commit illegal activities. Instead, they could simply get vaccinated. It’s not as if there is no quick and easy solution given to them.

But no, they are so brave and principled that it is suggested that they must now turn to stealing to survive?
Good one. :up:
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Boosted632
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Boosted632 »

LANDM wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:40 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:35 am

You do recognize that denying people access to money to survive on will drive up crime and violence right? Is there an expectation that they will have to go on welfare or will they deny that too? People will steal to survive. Is that a world you are prepared to live in?
EI is insurance, not a fund for access to money to survive for any reason. There is criteria that has not been met.
What people do when they voluntarily leave employment or get fired for cause is their problem, but that does not give carte blanche to commit illegal activities. Instead, they could simply get vaccinated. It’s not as if there is no quick and easy solution given to them.

But no, they are so brave and principled that it is suggested that they must now turn to stealing to survive?
Good one. :up:
Riiigghhtt being forced into taking an untested vaccine that doesn't really work and may or may not have harmful side effects is a quick easy solution, good one.
I wouldn't Have to manage my anger if people could learn to manage their STUPIDITY
LANDM
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by LANDM »

Boosted632 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:53 am
LANDM wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:40 am

EI is insurance, not a fund for access to money to survive for any reason. There is criteria that has not been met.
What people do when they voluntarily leave employment or get fired for cause is their problem, but that does not give carte blanche to commit illegal activities. Instead, they could simply get vaccinated. It’s not as if there is no quick and easy solution given to them.

But no, they are so brave and principled that it is suggested that they must now turn to stealing to survive?
Good one. :up:
Riiigghhtt being forced into taking an untested vaccine that doesn't really work and may or may not have harmful side effects is a quick easy solution, good one.
It is tested, approved, effective, and in use with billions of doses given and rare instances of side effects.

Try again. But this time with an effective, accurate argument.
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fluffy
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:35 amYou do recognize that denying people access to money to survive on will drive up crime and violence right? Is there an expectation that they will have to go on welfare or will they deny that too? People will steal to survive. Is that a world you are prepared to live in?
I recognize, as do most, that there is an easy solution for people out of work because they refuse to vaccinate, a solution that benefits more people than just them.
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Beerhunter341
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Beerhunter341 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 7:05 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 6:35 amYou do recognize that denying people access to money to survive on will drive up crime and violence right? Is there an expectation that they will have to go on welfare or will they deny that too? People will steal to survive. Is that a world you are prepared to live in?
I recognize, as do most, that there is an easy solution for people out of work because they refuse to vaccinate, a solution that benefits more people than just them.
Just like there is an easy solution to homelessness, get a job. Obviously people are opposed to vaccination so how do you think it is an easy solution?
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 5:48 am

The government and community isn't supporting anything. These people have paid into this program.
EI is an insurance policy where everyone pays into a pot. But insurance has rules.

If you intentionally burn down your own house, you can't collect from your home insurer, either.
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fluffy
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 7:11 am Obviously people are opposed to vaccination so how do you think it is an easy solution?
Sure they are opposed, that's obvious. It's more to the point that the reasons for that opposition aren't being viewed as legitimate by anyone but the small vocal minority using them.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by LANDM »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 7:11 am
fluffy wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 7:05 am

I recognize, as do most, that there is an easy solution for people out of work because they refuse to vaccinate, a solution that benefits more people than just them.
Just like there is an easy solution to homelessness, get a job. Obviously people are opposed to vaccination so how do you think it is an easy solution?
Oh, perhaps because billions of others have taken this easy solution. Billions. With a B. Think about it.

Homeless people aren’t trying to collect home insurance.
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rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

We're expected to accept that unvaccinated people should have their employment terminated and their EI denied "because workplace safety" regardless of other measures in place, yet there's no mandatory provision in place to ensure vaccinated employees with covid are kept out of the workplace.

There's no logic in this.
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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

It's weird that some people care so much about a small number of anti-vaxxers who seem to care only about themselves.

What's next? Champion scapegoated, persecuted drunk drivers because the rest of us have seatbelts and airbags to protect ourselves from the irresponsible lushes?
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by AtlantisKelowna »

If this was truly about workplace safety the current IH policy would be to treat every person equally. Currently, exposure cases are handled differently based on vax status.

If your vaxxed and do not show any symptoms, testing is not required, but if you are unvaxxed, show no symptoms it is required?

If your vaxxed and do not show symptoms you don't need to isolate, if your unvaxxed you do?

If you are vaxxed and test negative you can carry on with life, if your unvaxxed and test negative you are still required to isolate.

Now, this would make sense if a vaccine was 100% effective which we all know it is not.

So then explain the rationale behind this policy and how it is about keeping people safe. To me, all exposures cases should be handled the same if it was about the safety of everyone.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

crookedmember wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 9:08 am It's weird that some people care so much about a small number of anti-vaxxers who seem to care only about themselves.

What's next? Champion scapegoated, persecuted drunk drivers because the rest of us have seatbelts and airbags to protect ourselves from the irresponsible lushes?
Yeah for sure those drunken drivers are "scapegoated" because it infringes on their right to drink, drive and put others in danger.
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erinmore3775
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by erinmore3775 »

The choice to participate in health and safety measures is a matter of personal choice. However, the exercising of that choice has consequences and responsibilities. Within my family circle I have several anti-vaxers and those who believe that COVID is a hoax. They are angry that their social life interactions have been reduced and have sought interactions that do not force them to show a vaccination certificate. They are angry that they are required to wear masks to shop but due so. However, when one member was required to be vaccinated to keep their job in construction, they complied. While their social life improved, their employment was maintained along with all benefits, their family relations deteriorated.

It is interesting that the small amount (about 10%) of the population is creating all the turmoil. They feel that their right not to be vaccinated should supersede the rights of others. Less than 1% of those 10% have a legitimate reason for not getting vaccinated ( allergy to vaccine ingredients, specific health condition). The rest of the unvaccinated have made their choice.

Celebrate your choice but accept the consequences. Your choice will affect your social interactions. It may affect your family interrelationships, and it may affect your employment opportunities. It will affect your access to EI, if your choice leads to dismissal. It is fair that you have a choice and have the ability to exercise your choice. However, it is unfair that you expect your choice to have no consequences or responsibilities.
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rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

erinmore3775 wrote: Oct 28th, 2021, 10:02 amCelebrate your choice but accept the consequences. Your choice will affect your social interactions. It may affect your family interrelationships, and it may affect your employment opportunities. It will affect your access to EI, if your choice leads to dismissal. It is fair that you have a choice and have the ability to exercise your choice. However, it is unfair that you expect your choice to have no consequences or responsibilities.
The consequences for the employee's choice should logically and rationally support the goal. These consequences are punitive and coercive, because the goal is to force people to do something they've chosen not to do.

If the goal was to ensure safer workplaces, we'd see mandates to ensure no employee entered the workplace while infected with covid. The consequences for these employees' for their choice do not logically or rationally support the goal of workplace safety.
Ideology...gives evil-doing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination...[it] is the social theory which helps to make his actions seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes...
-Solzhenitsyn

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