No EI for the unvaccinated

Sparki55
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

crookedmember wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 10:23 am I'm certainly glad you folks were not around on D-Day, because we'd all be speaking German.

Although I wouldn't exactly compare taking a safe and effective vaccine to storming the beaches.
Forced conscription into the army is also unethical.

I will join voluntarily should we be faced with a Hitler. Forcing others to join me is wrong.
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ferri
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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:-X :topic:
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JLives
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by JLives »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 10:34 am
crookedmember wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 8:33 am There have been 30,000 COVID deaths in Canada. Just exactly how many has the vaccine killed?

Talk about grasping at straws.
If the vaccine has killed just one person it's an unethical choice for somebody else to make.

You don't kill anyone just to save another person. Not one person is more or less valuable than anyone else.
No. That's not how risk assessments work. You can't eliminate harm, you can only reduce it.
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JLives
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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erinmore3775 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 9:31 am Being required to be vaccinated in order to work in certain professions or workplaces is not the equivalent of banishing witches. There is a choice here. You can get vaccinated and work for a company that requires the vaccination or you may choose to work elsewhere. The employer has the choice of implementing the vaccine health and safety mandate. The employee has a choice of whether to follow that requirement/mandate.

If the employee breaks the employment contract they may be dismissed for cause and probably will not be eligible for EI. The employer who institutes such a vaccine mandate must also take into consideration how that mandate will affect their production, services provided, and customer relations. Currently almost 90% of the BC population see vaccinations as a positive defence against COVID and its variants. Therefore, an employer mandate requiring vaccination would probably make good business sense in spite of the fact that maybe up-to 10% of their workforce may choose to leave.

Those that choose not to get vaccinated are not being banished to the wastelands to die. They are being allowed to live their lives according to their choices. As a result, their social and travel activities may be limited. Their opportunity for employment may also be limited. However, their right to make choices has not been curtailed.

This is not a debate on whether vaccines are good or bad. This is simply a debate on whether people have a right to make a personal choice and whether that choice supersedes the rights of others. EI was established to help those who lost employment due to circumstances or working conditions beyond their control, not out of a circumstance resulting from personal choice. Choosing not to get vaccinated is a personal choice.
This is correct. People don't seem to understand that choices have consequences. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
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rustled
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 10:42 am
Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 10:34 am

If the vaccine has killed just one person it's an unethical choice for somebody else to make.

You don't kill anyone just to save another person. Not one person is more or less valuable than anyone else.
No. That's not how risk assessments work. You can't eliminate harm, you can only reduce it.
I'm with Sparki55: You don't kill anyone just to save another person.

In this case, no one has yet provided proof there's a significant reduction of risk in the workplace when an unvaccinated employee is fired, with no EI. A proper risk assessment would likely show mandating tests to ensure no worker is infectious would be more effective, and more just.

You support the protection of the person when we're discussing women's reproductive choices, and it's interesting to me that you seem unable to see the parallels here. Particularly for anyone who genuinely feels they are risking their life by accepting the vaccine.
...do some internal evaluation; Are you aiming to tell the truth or just "win"? Are you aiming to inform or to promote a narrative? Have you checked your facts or are you just accepting what you are told? Ad Nausica
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JLives
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Actually they have. You not reading or understanding it is not their issue. Vaccines reduce risk of transmission and how Covid affects you if you do happen to catch it. It's actually pretty straight forward.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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erinmore3775 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 9:31 am Being required to be vaccinated in order to work in certain professions or workplaces is not the equivalent of banishing witches. There is a choice here. You can get vaccinated and work for a company that requires the vaccination or you may choose to work elsewhere. The employer has the choice of implementing the vaccine health and safety mandate. The employee has a choice of whether to follow that requirement/mandate.

If the employee breaks the employment contract they may be dismissed for cause and probably will not be eligible for EI. The employer who institutes such a vaccine mandate must also take into consideration how that mandate will affect their production, services provided, and customer relations. Currently almost 90% of the BC population see vaccinations as a positive defence against COVID and its variants. Therefore, an employer mandate requiring vaccination would probably make good business sense in spite of the fact that maybe up-to 10% of their workforce may choose to leave.

Those that choose not to get vaccinated are not being banished to the wastelands to die. They are being allowed to live their lives according to their choices. As a result, their social and travel activities may be limited. Their opportunity for employment may also be limited. However, their right to make choices has not been curtailed.

This is not a debate on whether vaccines are good or bad. This is simply a debate on whether people have a right to make a personal choice and whether that choice supersedes the rights of others. EI was established to help those who lost employment due to circumstances or working conditions beyond their control, not out of a circumstance resulting from personal choice. Choosing not to get vaccinated is a personal choice.
Well said. As always.

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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:18 am Actually they have. You not reading or understanding it is not their issue. Vaccines reduce risk of transmission and how Covid affects you if you do happen to catch it. It's actually pretty straight forward.
Kindly show me the proof that unvaccinated employees who are infected with covid present a significantly greater risk of infecting their coworkers than do vaccinated employees who are infected with covid.

Kindly show how this is more effective than testing to prevent infectious employees from infecting their coworkers.

If it's straightforward, this should be simple for you to do. It seems to me this is also what any employer who is taken to court for firing an employee for refusing the vaccine will be expected to do...

TIA.

Also, I've noted that once again you've sidestepped the rights of an employee vis a vis protection of the person, taking the opposite stance than you would when we're discussing women's reproductive choices. It continues to interest me that you seem unable to see the parallels here, particularly for any employee who genuinely feels they are risking their life by accepting the vaccine.
...do some internal evaluation; Are you aiming to tell the truth or just "win"? Are you aiming to inform or to promote a narrative? Have you checked your facts or are you just accepting what you are told? Ad Nausica
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JLives
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Ya it's been presented to you. Several times. And the info is so readily available. You not understanding it is noone's issue but yours.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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We're almost at 50% of total local COVID cases in vaccinated people.

These "vaccinated safe spaces" are sure getting smaller and smaller.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by rustled »

JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:39 am Ya it's been presented to you. Several times. And the info is so readily available. You not understanding it is noone's issue but yours.
You seem to me to be misunderstanding what I'm asking to see. Others have presented info that does not address the issue - this doesn't help and may have led to your misunderstanding.

I've asked for proof or strong evidence to show that
  1. unvaccinated employees who are infected with covid present a significantly greater risk of infecting their coworkers than do vaccinated employees who are infected with covid
  2. firing unvaccinated workers is more effective than testing to prevent infectious employees from infecting their coworkers
Again, this is what I would expect to have to be presented in court to prove the termination was reasonable, and denial of EI was reasonable.

Instead, I'm given proof unvaccinated people are more likely to get sicker with more symptoms - which strongly suggests they're less likely to come to work with covid than vaccinated people infected with covid - and more likely to be hospitalized.

No one has yet provided what I've actually asked for, though, and this suggests to me there is no reasonable evidence to support "no EI for the unvaccinated".
...do some internal evaluation; Are you aiming to tell the truth or just "win"? Are you aiming to inform or to promote a narrative? Have you checked your facts or are you just accepting what you are told? Ad Nausica
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JLives
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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It doesn't matter what's presented. You'll just move the goalposts again on what you want to see. We see you. The information is available. Go read it.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:39 am Ya it's been presented to you. Several times. And the info is so readily available. You not understanding it is noone's issue but yours.
Understand that unimmunized children can catch diseases from people who have a vaccine-preventable disease but don’t have any symptoms. You cannot tell who is contagious.
https://immunizebc.ca/your-risks-and-re ... ated-child

The above, released prior to Covid, indicates that the risk is borne by the unvaccinated. This is true because the vaccinated can carry disease with no symptoms and be potentially contagious without knowing it.

Once we are all vaccinated through more forced coercion mechanisms, Covid will be here forever and we will forever need to vaccinate against it.

Just be honest with yourself and others and know these shots will become part of the normal vaccination schedule with boosters like tetanus shots, however this will will be mandatory for employment.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:52 am It doesn't matter what's presented. You'll just move the goalposts again on what you want to see. We see you. The information is available. Go read it.
Kinda like what the vax mandate crowd does.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by JLives »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:54 am
JLives wrote: Oct 30th, 2021, 11:39 am Ya it's been presented to you. Several times. And the info is so readily available. You not understanding it is noone's issue but yours.
Understand that unimmunized children can catch diseases from people who have a vaccine-preventable disease but don’t have any symptoms. You cannot tell who is contagious.
https://immunizebc.ca/your-risks-and-re ... ated-child

The above, released prior to Covid, indicates that the risk is borne by the unvaccinated. This is true because the vaccinated can carry disease with no symptoms and be potentially contagious without knowing it.

Once we are all vaccinated through more forced coercion mechanisms, Covid will be here forever and we will forever need to vaccinate against it.

Just be honest with yourself and others and know these shots will become part of the normal vaccination schedule with boosters like tetanus shots, however this will will be mandatory for employment.
Covid is here forever. That's how viruses work. I'm fine with vaccines and boosters because I'm not a conspiracy theorist and because they are a minimal risk solution.
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