No EI for the unvaccinated

Beerhunter341
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Beerhunter341 »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 3rd, 2021, 9:30 am
Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 3rd, 2021, 9:25 am
Regardless of his choices it is pretty sad that you have to make a comment like that. He likely has a family and children.

The people he has worked so hard and long to convince to decline vaccination and are now in ICU fighting for their lives also have families and children.
Agreed but it is still in poor taste to mock someone on deaths doorstep
foenix
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 3rd, 2021, 10:52 am
crookedmember wrote: Nov 3rd, 2021, 9:30 am


The people he has worked so hard and long to convince to decline vaccination and are now in ICU fighting for their lives also have families and children.
Agreed but it is still in poor taste to mock someone on deaths doorstep
I wonder what he thinks of vaccines now? Perhaps like others that were anti-vax and ended up at death's doorsteps, he will now urge others to get vaccinated.
nucksRnum1
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by nucksRnum1 »

Beerhunter341 wrote: Nov 3rd, 2021, 9:25 amRegardless of his choices it is pretty sad that you have to make a comment like that. He likely has a family and children.
He should have thought about things and his family then - before he stood on principle.
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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

Just out from the province.

Ten times as likely to contract the virus and 50 times as likely to end up in hospital.

Never mind 46 times more likely to die.

Can you imagine the strain these dullards put on an employer's extended medical benefits plan?

Fire 'em all and hire smarter people.


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Sparki55
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 6:36 pm Just out from the province.

Ten times as likely to contract the virus and 50 times as likely to end up in hospital.

Never mind 46 times more likely to die.
The base numbers matter.

If 1 in 50 vaccinated people required hospitalization from the virus and unvaccinated were 50 times more likely to be hospitalized i.e. each case was hospitalized, that's significant!

If only 1 in 1,000,000 vaccinated require hospitalization and unvaccinated are 50 times more likely to be hospitalized i.e. 1 in 20,000 or 0.005% then that's not significant at all.

Sensationalized numbers is all I see.
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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

Um, you should look at the chart. There are 82 deaths per 100K unvaccinated and 1.8 deaths per 100K vaccinated.

There are 302 hospitalizations per 100K unvaccinated and 6.1 hospitalizations per 100K vaccinated.
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Sparki55
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

crookedmember wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 8:31 pm Um, you should look at the chart. There are 82 deaths per 100K unvaccinated and 1.8 deaths per 100K vaccinated.
Okay so the death rate is 0.082% unvaccinated and 0.0018% vaccinated. There is a reason why they choose to state, 50 times higher than to just post the numbers I calculated. One hits way harder for news clicks.
crookedmember wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 8:31 pm There are 302 hospitalizations per 100K unvaccinated and 6.1 hospitalizations per 100K vaccinated.
Again, the real numbers are better to read than a sensationalized number.

It's like cleaning product advertisements. This product cleans 6x better than the leading brand! When in reality one kills 99.7% of germs and the other kills 99.8% of germs.

I almost have a better chance to die in a car accident than from Covid.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

Sparki55 wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 8:14 pm
crookedmember wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 6:36 pm Just out from the province.

Ten times as likely to contract the virus and 50 times as likely to end up in hospital.

Never mind 46 times more likely to die.
The base numbers matter.

If 1 in 50 vaccinated people required hospitalization from the virus and unvaccinated were 50 times more likely to be hospitalized i.e. each case was hospitalized, that's significant!

If only 1 in 1,000,000 vaccinated require hospitalization and unvaccinated are 50 times more likely to be hospitalized i.e. 1 in 20,000 or 0.005% then that's not significant at all.

Sensationalized numbers is all I see.
Ummm....no. 50X something is SIGNIFICANT when one is comparing something. If the reverse was true, I'm sure you's be on top of Mt Everest shouting it out to the world.......but nice try.
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erinmore3775
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by erinmore3775 »

The real problem is not the number of deaths per 100k of the unvaccinated but their number of hospitalizations; 302 per 100k. Those unvaccinated in the Interior and the North are plugging up the hospitals with many ICU patients being transferred to lower mainland hospitals.
Those vaccinated patients spend less time in hospitals and have a lesser chance of ending up in ICU or or dead. The statistics also indicate that they also have less chance of transferring the disease.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

erinmore3775 wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 10:10 pmThose vaccinated patients spend less time in hospitals and have a lesser chance of ending up in ICU or or dead. The statistics also indicate that they also have less chance of transferring the disease.
Points that are lost on AVers.

This from the CDC:

"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html

AVers are quick to translate "fully vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility" into "vaccinated people can transmit the virus too", ignoring the "reduced" aspect of the statement. The point is that this is our best knowledge to date, and it does indicate "potential" for reduced tranmissability. Is it not simple common sense to go with the best info available until something better comes along ?
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erinmore3775
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by erinmore3775 »

Please allow me a short rant. I have just learned that a close friend's stage four cancer treatment has been delayed because of a shortage of hospital beds. The delay will likely be short, but it is a delay directly related to the current COVID situation. Normally hospitals were designed to run at 85 to 90% capacity. There is always "emergency" treatment space. In the past few years, many hospitals ran closer to 95% capacity, moving many treatments to outpatients. However, even those procedures required some bed space in the case of an unforeseen circumstance. COVID changed all that!

While education and vaccinations greatly improved the situation, the last wave of COVID hit the unvaccinated particularly hard. These are the patients who are now severely clogging our treatment centers. I respect the right of choice. I may not agree with the choices, but I cannot agree with those who refuse to accept the consequences of their choices. Vaccination is a choice. It comes with benefits, consequences, and side effects.

Vaccinations have been shown to benefit society and its fight against COVID. There are side effects, most are minor and there are some people, a very few, who for medical or allergy reasons cannot be vaccinated. Then there are the "refusnicks." As a refusnick accept the consequences of your choice. Your social actions will be restricted and if vaccination is a requirement for your employment you may be furloughed, laid off, or terminated with cause all without EI benefits. The loss of those benefits seems to be a small price to pay for your choice.
We can’t fight homelessness, hunger, or poverty, but we can fight climate change. The juxtaposition of the now and the future, food for thought.

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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

While our friends on the right believe a hospitalization rate of 302 per 100,000 unvaccinated is not significant, it's easy to see how fast this fills hospital beds in high unvaxxed areas like the Okanagan.

Selfish, stupid people.
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Sparki55
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

foenix wrote: Nov 4th, 2021, 10:08 pm Ummm....no. 50X something is SIGNIFICANT when one is comparing something. If the reverse was true, I'm sure you's be on top of Mt Everest shouting it out to the world.......but nice try.
Lol...

Do you drive a car or pickup truck?
Drivers in cars were found to be 9 times more likely to die in a crash than drivers in SUV’s, and 17 times more likely to die than drivers of light trucks.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/munley.com ... crash/amp/

That's significant!!! All car drivers must be so dumb and unsafe! And the passengers of their cars are more at risk! How dare they! So preventable if they would only switch to trucks.

Shall we do more examples to see how dumb and sensationalized the news is? It's the real numbers that matter, like you'll likely be involved in 3 crashes in your life and only 1 in 103 crashes involved a fatality. So your average chance of dying is somewhere around 1%. That's an average of all accidents so driving a car is somewhere then between 1% and 2% likely to die in an accident and pickup trucks are around 0.06% and 0.12% to die in an accident if following these numbers. Gonna change what you drive?

Note... Other websites put cars at only 4.5 times less safe, I'm not arguing the real numbers, just how this gs can be blow out of proportion related to Covid numbers.

If we can't get past the news as a society we are doomed to argue with each other forever. The news is trying to gain clicks and views and know exactly what buttons to push to get you engaged.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by foenix »

fluffy wrote: Nov 5th, 2021, 7:06 am
AVers are quick to translate "fully vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility" into "vaccinated people can transmit the virus too", ignoring the "reduced" aspect of the statement. The point is that this is our best knowledge to date, and it does indicate "potential" for reduced tranmissability. Is it not simple common sense to go with the best info available until something better comes along ?
That's not true, I know of at least one vaxxer using that exact argument to play the devil's advocate for whatever reason but I suspect it's just the nature of the beast just to be diffucult, obtuse and argumentative. :biggrin:
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crookedmember
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by crookedmember »

Sparki55 wrote: Nov 5th, 2021, 9:14 am

Do you drive a car or pickup truck?
Drivers in cars were found to be 9 times more likely to die in a crash than drivers in SUV’s, and 17 times more likely to die than drivers of light trucks.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/munley.com ... crash/amp/

You probably need better sources for your information than some personal injury lawyers in Georgia.

The average death rate for all vehicles was 36 per million registered vehicle years. Broken down by vehicle class, cars had an average of 48 deaths, followed by pickups at 29, SUVs at 25, and minivans at 22.

And not all SUVs performed better than cars. Small, two-wheel-drive SUVs had about the same fatality rates as midsized sedans—42 for the SUVs and 43 for the sedans.

The IIHS data is from 2015 to 2018 and covers the 2014 to 2017 model years of all vehicles with at least 100,000 registered vehicle years. The research group has published a version of this study about every three years going back to 1989.

The data only look at the death rates for drivers, not for other passengers in the vehicle. And while the rates are adjusted for driver age and gender, they don’t capture other factors that could influence fatalities, such as speeding, the number of miles driven each day, and the types of roadways people use.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-saf ... -car-size/


Keep in mind that some cars are safer than trucks.


Also keep in mind that the car death rate in the USA is 12 per million, while the COVID death rate is 2278 per million.

The weekly COVID death rate is currently 19 per million, so COVID kills as many Americans in 5 days as cars do in a year.

Nice try, but you're comparing apples to oranges in a terrible way.
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