No EI for the unvaccinated

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sobrohusfat
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by sobrohusfat »

Ka-El wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 1:22 pm
Indeed. All choices come with consequence...
Yah Yah, thats fine - Except pretending that the topic of this thread, and its direct impact to many of your neighbours, doesnt go well beyond this tired platitude adds nothing.

At least Crookedmember is direct and honest & cant be accused of being a two-faced hypocrite pretending to GAF
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

Ka-El wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 1:22 pm Indeed. All choices come with consequence, and crying about having to take responsibility for the consequence of your choice isn't about freedom. It's about adolescence.
Saying choices come with consequences doesn't apply. The "consequence" for not taking a medical procedures is banishment from society; loss of employment and loss of social dining.

Each year that goes by we add more restrictions to everyday life. This doesn't make life any better for society as a whole.

Each year we raise taxes, raise CPP contributions, add more laws, add more regulation and force people into conformity.

It's false to claim that vaccinated people are unsafe around unvaccinated. The point of the vaccine is to help you should should contract Covid. The only reason that is true is that it will alleviate the healthcare system. We're at over 70% vaccinated... Our healthcare system never collapsed at 0% vaccinated so it won't collapse at 70% vaccinated.

The "consequences" are therefore unjustified...

Enough with more government restrictions just to have their certain way... We need to move in a direction of less restrictions and taxes for things that society doesn't require.
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GordonH
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Federal & provincial governments are truly :swear: up.
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fluffy
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Sparki55 wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 12:07 pmOnce you are vaccinated you are protected.
Exactly. Perhaps not 100% with the advent of mutated strains, but certainly more protected than you are without any vaccination at all. I keep wondering why this is such a difficult concept for AVs to grasp.
Last edited by fluffy on Oct 25th, 2021, 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fluffy
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Sparki55 wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 3:29 pmThe "consequence" for not taking a medical procedures is banishment from society; loss of employment and loss of social dining.
"Banishment from society" pretty extreme. How about "restricted from areas where your lack of vaccination presents an unnecessary risk to others" ?
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by hobbyguy »

rustled wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 10:27 am
hobbyguy wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 10:17 am

Yes it is about health and safety. Employers must take all reasonable steps to protect the health and safety of their employees.

IF a person was convicted of being a pedophile and were in charge of a kindergarten, you would fire them. Yup, you just fired them for their individual "moral beliefs". Your inverse reasoning regarding "moral beliefs" is invalid.
Talk about scapegoating! You realize you've equated people who didn't get vaccinated with convicted pedophiles. There's nothing whatsoever about this comparison that any rational person would see as moral, valid, or logical.

With what we currently know about vaccinated people infecting their families with covid, I doubt employers would be able to prove it's reasonable to fire unvaccinated people. We'll see.
Nope. I was just showing you the illogical and fruitlessness of your inverse reasoning about "personal moral beliefs". Lots of people have really weird "personal moral beliefs". Pedophiles are an extreme example.

People who don't pay their rent are free to do so - but there will be consequences. Etc.

You need to give your head a shake on transmission from vaccinated folks. Yup, it happens, but is both rare and their infectious period is shorter and less severe.

Like the NIH points out:

"The data show that only 0.2 percent of those who were fully vaccinated later tested positive for COVID-19."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... id/620161/

"To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period."

All the rest of the nonsense is goofy stuff from anti-vaxxers, for whom I have zero tolerance - they are just being dumb dumbs and are doing us all a disservice by polluting the discussion for the hesitant.

And yup, those who are vaccinated have the right to work in as safe an environment as possible - which is why you can't walk into an office and light up a cigarette, or fire up a cigar at a gas station or in a factory. And yup, unvaccinated folks are about 30+ times as likely to bring COVID into the workplace. So just like smoking, you can not allow them to pollute the work environment.

It is so simple and straightforward. It is part of civic duty and the duty to our families, friends and coworkers.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

fluffy wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Sparki55 wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 3:29 pmThe "consequence" for not taking a medical procedures is banishment from society; loss of employment and loss of social dining.
"Banishment from society" pretty extreme. How about "restricted from areas where your lack of vaccination presents an unnecessary risk to others" ?
You don't present a risk to others who are vaccinated, otherwise why vaccinate... The logic here is incredibly hilarious.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by hobbyguy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 4:25 pm
fluffy wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 4:13 pm

"Banishment from society" pretty extreme. How about "restricted from areas where your lack of vaccination presents an unnecessary risk to others" ?
You don't present a risk to others who are vaccinated, otherwise why vaccinate... The logic here is incredibly hilarious.
You seem to forget that many families are multi generational. If an unvaccinated person gives you COVID at work, you will take it home and put seniors (who do not mount as strong an immune response) and children (who can not yet be vaccinated) at risk - not to mention any other friends and relatives that you come in contact with.

In other words it ain't "about you". If the dumb dumb anti-vaxxers get COVID and die, well that's Darwinian evolution at work. The problem is that they put a lot of others unnecessarily at risk - and so fine, want be a childish, delusional and selfish twit? Go somewhere else - end of story.

Time to stop with the childish and selfish nonsense, put yer big person panties on and suck it up - decisions have consequences.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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OK, correct me if I'm wrong.

A: Vaccines do not stop people from getting Covid 19.

B: Vaccines do help that if you do get sick, you may not get "really" sick.

C: So the only people who are adversely affected by not getting vaccinated are the ones who are not vaccinated because you can still catch covid from either group.

D: Are the unvaccinated more likely to catch covid or just more likely to get very sick with it if they do catch it?

E: Are they more contagious if they have it or the same as a vaccinated person who has it?

Either way it still makes more sense to me to be vaccinated and have a better chance of surviving and/or not being hospitalized.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Ka-El »

sobrohusfat wrote:
Ka-El wrote: Indeed. All choices come with consequence...
Yah Yah, thats fine - Except pretending that the topic of this thread, and its direct impact to many of your neighbours, doesnt go well beyond this tired platitude adds nothing.
Employers have every right, and a responsibility to provide a safe workplace. If employees choose not to follow the workplace safety policy of their employer they can be let go. If they are let go due to their own choice they may find they are not covered by EI. While I have no doubt there is a small percentage who have valid medical reasons to be vaccine hesitant, the majority of anti-vaxxers are just anti-authority, anti-government conspiracy theorists whose adolescent and selfish behaviour is negatively affecting everyone - including my neighbors. It is unfortunate that the behaviour of such a small minority can so negatively impact all of us.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by fluffy »

Sparki55 wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 4:25 pmYou don't present a risk to others who are vaccinated, otherwise why vaccinate...
Yes you do, but to a much lesser degree.
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sobrohusfat
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

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Ka-El wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 6:01 pm ...they may find they are not covered by EI. ..
thats the only bit you posted that's on topic.

Losing a job is a big enough kick to the groin - but, oh well, it's justified as simply "consequences" of wrong choices right? all for "public/workplace safety" right? OK - fine.

Denying EI is a subsequent pipe to the teeth on their way down tho - and why? just so the unvaxed lepers know the first one wasnt an accident?. Its just wrong - in every conceivable way and does nothing to protect anyone.

...And tonight i hear from a single mom (french teacher to public servants and bureaucrats) who will lose her job because of the double-vax mandate on all government workers - even though the job was teaching online - FROM HOME. ...and now others like her "may find they are not covered by EI" ?? ...and this makes sense to you?

Now smugly tell her and her kid how that kick to the groin followed by the pipe to the teeth is all about public/workplace safety - because all she needs to do is go submit to the vax - for the greater good after all - right?.

Wrong
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Sparki55 »

hobbyguy wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 4:40 pm You seem to forget that many families are multi generational. If an unvaccinated person gives you COVID at work, you will take it home and put seniors (who do not mount as strong an immune response) and children (who can not yet be vaccinated) at risk - not to mention any other friends and relatives that you come in contact with.
If they are vaccinated they are as protected as they can be.

Guess you would agree to being fired for refusing the flu shots then, same issue.

You make it seem like it will be the unvaccinated person at works fault. How about putting the blame directly on the multi generational family? If they are that damn worried about grandma getting Covid after they come home from work, maybe they should distance and wear a mask when around her. That's what I do when I visit my grandparents.

I've had coworkers whose kid has become ill with Covid and it never transfered to mom and dad. Kids were 7 and 12. Dad wasn't vaxxed.... Hmmm....
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by Ka-El »

sobrohusfat wrote:
Ka-El wrote: ...they may find they are not covered by EI. ..
thats the only bit you posted that's on topic.
You wanted me to stay "on topic". Wilfully choosing not to follow WorkSafe policy could result in being let go and said person could find themselves ineligible for employment insurance. That's the only bit that matters.
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Re: No EI for the unvaccinated

Post by hobbyguy »

Bsuds wrote: Oct 24th, 2021, 5:26 pm OK, correct me if I'm wrong.

A: Vaccines do not stop people from getting Covid 19.

B: Vaccines do help that if you do get sick, you may not get "really" sick.

C: So the only people who are adversely affected by not getting vaccinated are the ones who are not vaccinated because you can still catch covid from either group.

D: Are the unvaccinated more likely to catch covid or just more likely to get very sick with it if they do catch it?

E: Are they more contagious if they have it or the same as a vaccinated person who has it?

Either way it still makes more sense to me to be vaccinated and have a better chance of surviving and/or not being hospitalized.
Vaccines DO stop most people from getting COVID. Yes, their are "breakthrough" infections because each person's immune system does not have the same strength of response.

The unvaccinated are MUCH more likely to catch COVID, spread COVID, and get seriously ill from COVID and die from COVID.

Those who get breakthrough infections after being vaccinated are less infectious for a shorter period of time.

Example: the majority of Pennsylvania residents are fully vaccinated (close to 80% of those eligible). https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-d ... ewsid=1595

"Vaccines Work: 97% of COVID Deaths, 95% of Hospitalizations and 94% of Cases are Among Unvaccinated Pennsylvanians"

Since that time the Delta variant has wiggled its way up to 26% of the cases being among the vaccinated. However, that still means that 74% of those getting COVID are the unvaccinated - who only represent 20% of the population. 26/80 = .325 while 74/20 = 3.7. 3.7/.325 = 113.8. That's a bit unscientific because I don't have all the variables like kids not yet eligible, but the indication is that their is a huge difference, something like 100 times more COVID prevalence among the unvaccinated. Part of that may be that the unvaccinated are both less likely to be conscientious about mask wearing etc. and more likely to engage in risky behaviors like crowded indoor parties etc. To really know the actual difference, you would have to control groups, identical behaviors, and then do the unethical thing of deliberately exposing them to COVID - which no sane person would do.
The middle path - everything in moderation, and everything in its time and order.

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