Can we have an honest discussion about health care?

[The Green Barbarian]

Jagmeet is losing his poop again because someone somewhere is trying to figure out a way out of the mess Canada is in regarding our health care.

One thing that really stood out to me - Canada is the ONLY country in the entire WORLD that doesn't allow private options. And yet every time any one talks about introducing private options, the NDP and other really stupid people start babbling about "US health care" and fearmongering like true idiots. Belgium has private health options. Japan has private health options. The UK has private health care options. Why are we so freaking cowardly in Canada? What are we so scared of? Why do we allow mental midgets like Jagmeet tell us what we should be doing (ie - don't change anything). Time for a change. Long over due change.

FIRST READING: Why Canada intentionally limits its supply of doctors

This week, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh tried — and failed — to convene an emergency House of Commons debate on the privatization of Canadian health care.

As the Ontario government of Premier Doug Ford debuted a plan to outsource more health procedures to for-profit clinics, Singh warned that it would serve only to cannibalize the public system.

“Health care is already dramatically understaffed, and for-profit facilities will poach doctors and nurses,” said Singh.

It’s a point on which Singh is probably correct – although he likely disagrees with the remedy.

While Canadians are increasingly warm to the idea of private options to alleviate a worsening crisis of health-care wait times, it won’t do much unless Canada can also break its onerous controls on health-care supply.

At the same time as politicians of all stripes condemn the country’s worsening doctor shortage, it is government policy to keep that shortage in place.

Canada maintains top-down limits on the number of students entering medical school each year. Provinces are also notoriously obstinate about approving foreign credentials in order to avoid overwhelming health-care budgets.

Until that system can be liberalized, any government contracts with for-profit providers will just be drawing from the same artificially small pool of clinics and physicians.

Canada stands alone among developed nations in maintaining an outright ban on private health insurance for anything covered by the Canada Health Act.

This is why Canadians can purchase insurance to cover emergency dental surgery, but if they get cancer they’re restricted either to getting in line – or paying cash in a U.S. hospital.

None of our peer countries do this. Two-tier systems are the norm everywhere from Japan to Belgium to the U.K.

In Australia, an expectant mother can deliver her baby for free in a no-frills public hospital. Or, if she’s got a good health insurance plan, she could opt for premium birthing care at a private hospital. In Canada, only the public option is legal.

These widescale limits on private health insurance are why Canada is particularly uptight about certifying a doctor or greenlighting a clinic, because the assumption is that the public system will have to pay for it.

The most obvious effect of this approach is that Canada maintains a quota system on how many students are allowed to enroll at the country’s 17 medical schools. A recent RBC analysis called the quota system a “choke point” that “limits student admissions to just under 3,000 spots for prospective doctors each year.”

Each year, provincial health departments calculate how many doctors they’ll be able to afford, and then sets med school admissions on that figure. In 2018, for instance, the Government of Quebec cut medical school admissions after they determined that “too many” medical students were graduating.

Basically no other profession works this way. Provinces don’t really care how many lawyers or auto mechanics their schools are producing each year, since it’s not the government’s job to find them work.

But an oncologist can only realistically expect to find employment through the government, which then prompts the government to only train as many on hand as they can afford.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/other/ ... 628a436f2d

[Babba_not_Gump]

An interesting and depressing article. Looks to be a similar one as this?
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ca ... adlineNews

Just another of the many stories of our broken country.

Just over twenty years ago a recently graduated doctor friend of ours told us that the country wasn't graduating enough doctors, and if if the numbers didn't increase things would get bad, real bad.
He was right.

The feds, the provinces, both have to smarten up.

They have cartels running everything, medical schools, dairies, poultry, communications, it's endless how governments at all levels are destroying this country and its citizens.

[The Green Barbarian]

An interesting and depressing article. Looks to be a similar one as this?
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ca ... adlineNews

Just another of the many stories of our broken country.

Just over twenty years ago a recently graduated doctor friend of ours told us that the country wasn't graduating enough doctors, and if if the numbers didn't increase things would get bad, real bad.
He was right.

The feds, the provinces, both have to smarten up.

They have cartels running everything, medical schools, dairies, poultry, communications, it's endless how governments at all levels are destroying this country and its citizens.

Imagine the thousands of people over the years that wanted to be doctors in Canada that were prevented from following their passion and also prevented from being a part of the solution to the problems in this country because of really bad, really stupid policy, that no politician has the guts to change. It's so pathetic.

[kgcayenne]

What will it take to graduate more physicians into the public system? The American style of for-profit medicine is just f ed. If you watch Jordan Peterson’s interviews, he points to it being partly responsible for this gender reassignment trend—cash cow.

Getting medical care should NOT be tied to a person’s balance sheet/ability to pay.

No matter what, we will need to pay more in the end, and I’d rather pay that out to taxes than to private for-profit clinics.

[Babba_not_Gump]

What will it take to graduate more physicians into the public system? The American style of for-profit medicine is just f ed. If you watch Jordan Peterson’s interviews, he points to it being partly responsible for this gender reassignment trend—cash cow.

Getting medical care should NOT be tied to a person’s balance sheet/ability to pay.

No matter what, we will need to pay more in the end, and I’d rather pay that out to taxes than to private for-profit clinics.

From the OP's link.
Canada stands alone among developed nations in maintaining an outright ban on private health insurance for anything covered by the Canada Health Act.

None of our peer countries do this. Two-tier systems are the norm everywhere from Japan to Belgium to the U.K.

Why is Canada so stubborn?

And you ask what it will take to graduate more doctors?
Easy. Increase the accepted applicants.

But they could double that number and it wouldn't be enough, as well as taking at least ten years to get these new doctors practicing.

So for the next ten to fifteen years, we are effed.

[spooker]

An interesting and depressing article. Looks to be a similar one as this?
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ca ... adlineNews

Just another of the many stories of our broken country.

It's not just similar it is the same article ... so I'm not sure about the validity of "the many stories of our broken country"

After having lived in the U.S. for way too long I can say that their for-profit health sucks ... family that I have down there are basically forking over way too much for less than we have with basic MSP ...

[Gone_Fishin]

Trudeau is tossing 500,000 immigrants per year at our healthcare system, but refuses to budge from the healthcare professional quotas in our medical schools.

We've hit the tipping point, aye we're well past it, yet Justin and Jagmeet, the two-headed commie monster, are ramming us to the point of no return.

[The Green Barbarian]

The American style of for-profit medicine is just f ed.

Why is this always the default position of every panicky anti-health-care-reformer? Did you not read the article? Every other country can figure out how to do a public-private solution. Every other country? Only our cowardice is holding us back from seeking the same solutions other countries have already figured out years ago. Enough of this fear mongering. Time for solutions, not panicky fear.

[The Green Barbarian]

After having lived in the U.S. for way too long I can say that their for-profit health sucks ... family that I have down there are basically forking over way too much for less than we have with basic MSP ...

More senseless and cowardly fear mongering. I lived in Australia and I can say that their two tier system rocks as no one goes without and those that want to pay more get to have more. It's a tried and true system that benefits everyone. Continuing to babble on about the US "for profit system" is just so stupid, and demonstrates a cowardice of spirit that is just un-Canadian and extremely weak. Other countries like Australia and the UK can figure it out, we can too. Enough of this using the US as a bogeyman for why we want to be cowards afraid of our own shadows when it comes to fixing what is broken.

Here's a suggestion - in a discussion about health care, if you find yourself typing the words "I don't want the US "for profit" health care system" how about you just go away and leave the discussion about how to fix things to adults who legitimately want to discuss systems that work, as opposed to our *bleep*-bag system that is failing everyone, rapidly.

[kgcayenne]

There is no question that Canadian politics are heavy influenced by American politics. Therefore, caution may be warranted to avoid the American style of profit-driven medicine.

[spooker]

After having lived in the U.S. for way too long I can say that their for-profit health sucks ... family that I have down there are basically forking over way too much for less than we have with basic MSP ...

More senseless and cowardly fear mongering. I lived in Australia and I can say that their two tier system rocks as no one goes without and those that want to pay more get to have more. It's a tried and true system that benefits everyone. Continuing to babble on about the US "for profit system" is just so stupid, and demonstrates a cowardice of spirit that is just un-Canadian and extremely weak. Other countries like Australia and the UK can figure it out, we can too. Enough of this using the US as a bogeyman for why we want to be cowards afraid of our own shadows when it comes to fixing what is broken.

Here's a suggestion - in a discussion about health care, if you find yourself typing the words "I don't want the US "for profit" health care system" how about you just go away and leave the discussion about how to fix things to adults who legitimately want to discuss systems that work, as opposed to our *bleep*-bag system that is failing everyone, rapidly.

Someone has looked at it and made good suggestions, neither of which are moving to a for-profit system ...

The article examines three policy and structural differences that may help explain the comparatively superior performance of the Australian system on most indicators, and two key areas of improvement for the Canadian system were illuminated: a stronger central government role and a national pharmaceutical plan. It is hoped that this article will empower health leaders to take action in these areas.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30249145/

[JLives]

There is no question that Canadian politics are heavy influenced by American politics. Therefore, caution may be warranted to avoid the American style of profit-driven medicine.

Yes indeed. Not everything needs a profit motive and in healthcare it's dangerous and erodes society. I like our system just fine but, yes, it needs some improvement. Less managers and more workers in Interior Health would be a good start.

[Babba_not_Gump]

Some of you need to get your heads out of the sand. You're all so fixated on the American system.

[nepal]

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There seems to be lots of money in the system, but who is productive, and who is not? Who is worth their pay, and who is not? Are these staff resources effectively deployed to get the job done? Is nepotism a moral-crushing issue in some cases? Does the retention of unproductive union workers, affect the morale of productive union workers? Is there too much and over-paid administration? I suspect most health workers earn what they are paid, but suspect their are some costly issues.
Yes/no, I don’t know, but who does? Maybe time to find out how the money can be spent most wisely!
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Just the >$75k workers: https://www.interiorhealth.ca/sites/def ... s-2022.pdf
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Curious, is there a graph available that shows the cost allocation breakdown, between frontline workers, and administration? And how does our system compare to other systems around the world?
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Would a small deductible ($20) help reduce unnecessary GP visits. (wave fee for poor and chronic conditions). How about front-line nursing, to deal with minor issues, allowing nurses to escalate issues to GP’s as necessary?
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[GordonH]

Curious question, were exactly would these doctors, nurses and support staff come from to have private options.