EV Mandates will lead to unaffordable insurance premiums

[SheilaO]

The Insurance Bureau of Canada sent out a consultation document to insurance brokers warning that EV mandates will lead to auto insurance rates doubling, or even tripling. The issues identified include:
1. The cost of fixing EV's in an accident are prohibitive, if there is damage to the battery, and will lead to much higher rates of write-offs.
2. The secondary liabilities associated with EV battery fires in public parkades, home garages, and causing wildfires.
3. The likely potential for massive insurance fraud where car owners simply burn their cars when faced with costs of between $20K, and $50K to replace batteries, and claim a battery fire.

[Babba_not_Gump]

Nobody in Ottawa cares.

[Jlabute]

The Insurance Bureau of Canada sent out a consultation document to insurance brokers warning that EV mandates will lead to auto insurance rates doubling, or even tripling. The issues identified include:
1. The cost of fixing EV's in an accident are prohibitive, if there is damage to the battery, and will lead to much higher rates of write-offs.
2. The secondary liabilities associated with EV battery fires in public parkades, home garages, and causing wildfires.
3. The likely potential for massive insurance fraud where car owners simply burn their cars when faced with costs of between $20K, and $50K to replace batteries, and claim a battery fire.

That would be right. Not to mention numerous freighters that have sunk carrying EVs. EVs are usually a quick write-off since one can't determine the health of the battery pack even after a small accident.

If premiums don't go up specifically for EVs, it is probably because we are all paying the premiums for EVs. As said - Ottawa doesn't care. Time for a new leader.

[spooker]

Another reason we need to ditch the idea of EVs and start buying e-bikes ... EVs are just replacing one problem with a different one ... they don't actually solve anything in a sustainable way other than direct emissions and moving parts ...

[moarcowbell]

Another reason we need to ditch the idea of EVs and start buying e-bikes ... EVs are just replacing one problem with a different one ... they don't actually solve anything in a sustainable way other than direct emissions and moving parts ...

Please explain how the average consumer is going to transport their 2 kids and hockey gear to practice at 5am on an e-bike.
Please explain how a tradesperson is going to transport their co-worker, chest of tools, and materials to the jobsite across town at 6:30am on an e-bike.
Please explain how the mother of 3 is going to pick up their groceries, pet from the vet, and the same said 3 kids from school and get home to make dinner before setting off to band, volleyball and basketball practices with same 3 kids (and sometimes their friends and teammates) on an e-bike.
Oh - and the above scenarios occur in January, after a snowfall of 8" and it's -12C.

[spooker]

Another reason we need to ditch the idea of EVs and start buying e-bikes ... EVs are just replacing one problem with a different one ... they don't actually solve anything in a sustainable way other than direct emissions and moving parts ...

Please explain how the average consumer is going to transport their 2 kids and hockey gear to practice at 5am on an e-bike.
Please explain how a tradesperson is going to transport their co-worker, chest of tools, and materials to the jobsite across town at 6:30am on an e-bike.
Please explain how the mother of 3 is going to pick up their groceries, pet from the vet, and the same said 3 kids from school and get home to make dinner before setting off to band, volleyball and basketball practices with same 3 kids (and sometimes their friends and teammates) on an e-bike.
Oh - and the above scenarios occur in January, after a snowfall of 8" and it's -12C.

There will always be exceptions, but those are fewer than the rule ... if we focus on not doing things because the exceptions make us think we can't solve the whole problem then we never get anywhere ... a good portion of the population does have the ability to use an e-bike and by transitioning those then everyone who is not able to do that will be left with less congestion and traffic on their commute ...

I remember posting a picture from a tradesperson in North Vancouver who travels by e-cargo bike ... when he needs to bring along more he has a flatbed trailer he hooks up for his table saw and other larger tools ...

A friend of mine uses her e-cargo bike for her two kids, all year round ... at a certain point of the year they swap out the commuter tires for studded versions and roll easily along the rail trail ...

None of the situations are impossible, they would just be seen as inconvenient and people will grab their car keys instead of doing the extra work needed for the situations ... slowly, at times sometimes it seems too slowly, we're making things more convenient for people to choose active transportation than driving a car ...

[Jlabute]

Another reason we need to ditch the idea of EVs and start buying e-bikes ... EVs are just replacing one problem with a different one ... they don't actually solve anything in a sustainable way other than direct emissions and moving parts ...

Right, I think the mandated end-goal of EV adoption can likely be disastrous for industry and the economy in general, while any benefit is too small to care about. From manufacturing to recycling, no one calculates the addition of the charger industry. When 1.5B EVs are on the road, there will be at least 500M chargers all wanting updates, repairs and replacements with millions being made every year - powered by oil and gas.

I think a battery revolution is needed before EV is substantially meaningful. There are small EVs that probably don't meet North American crash standards... so we will never see those. Still a tiny $22000 Nissan Sakura for example is too expensive for it's capabilities. Yet another reason to have a battery revolution.

E-bikes are quite expensive for what they do, plus you can't tow a trailer with 2 tonnes of bricks or something like that. Certainly work still needs to be done in civilization. There have been a lot of fires too with small mobility devices. They are beginning to look dangerous.

[moarcowbell]

Please explain how the average consumer is going to transport their 2 kids and hockey gear to practice at 5am on an e-bike.
Please explain how a tradesperson is going to transport their co-worker, chest of tools, and materials to the jobsite across town at 6:30am on an e-bike.
Please explain how the mother of 3 is going to pick up their groceries, pet from the vet, and the same said 3 kids from school and get home to make dinner before setting off to band, volleyball and basketball practices with same 3 kids (and sometimes their friends and teammates) on an e-bike.
Oh - and the above scenarios occur in January, after a snowfall of 8" and it's -12C.

There will always be exceptions, but those are fewer than the rule ... if we focus on not doing things because the exceptions make us think we can't solve the whole problem then we never get anywhere ... a good portion of the population does have the ability to use an e-bike and by transitioning those then everyone who is not able to do that will be left with less congestion and traffic on their commute ...

I remember posting a picture from a tradesperson in North Vancouver who travels by e-cargo bike ... when he needs to bring along more he has a flatbed trailer he hooks up for his table saw and other larger tools ...

A friend of mine uses her e-cargo bike for her two kids, all year round ... at a certain point of the year they swap out the commuter tires for studded versions and roll easily along the rail trail ...

None of the situations are impossible, they would just be seen as inconvenient and people will grab their car keys instead of doing the extra work needed for the situations ... slowly, at times sometimes it seems too slowly, we're making things more convenient for people to choose active transportation than driving a car ...

Exceptions? Hardly - more like the vast majority of existence. We’re not talking about North Van - we’re talking about here, where we typically have snow for the duration of winter. Good luck packing those 20 2x6 studs and 10 sheets of plywood to the job site in Toovey Heights or upper Mission on your bike cart when there’s 10” of fresh snow on the road. Of course, you could always pay to have it delivered, but that would fly in the face of conservation as the delivery truck is a diesel spewing behemoth. Heck, with this logic we’ll be reverting back to horse and cart - oh wait, that darn methane output from Nelly and her oats. Sorry kids - looks like you’re walking.

[Babba_not_Gump]

Another reason we need to ditch the idea of EVs and start buying e-bikes ...

^^^
This is shear lunacy.

EVs are just replacing one problem with a different one ... they don't actually solve anything in a sustainable way other than direct emissions and moving parts ...

^^^
This I agree with.

[spooker]

Exceptions? Hardly - more like the vast majority of existence. We’re not talking about North Van - we’re talking about here, where we typically have snow for the duration of winter. Good luck packing those 20 2x6 studs and 10 sheets of plywood to the job site in Toovey Heights or upper Mission on your bike cart when there’s 10” of fresh snow on the road. Of course, you could always pay to have it delivered, but that would fly in the face of conservation as the delivery truck is a diesel spewing behemoth. Heck, with this logic we’ll be reverting back to horse and cart - oh wait, that darn methane output from Nelly and her oats. Sorry kids - looks like you’re walking.

How many times do you see a vehicle driving by with a single person in it? Not a tradesperson, just someone running a quick errand ... the data shows that there a lot of easy trips that can be accomplished by bike that instead we waste fuel and create congestion by using the car ...

Delivery is a good idea for things because the retailer can optimize multiple deliveries with a single trip ...

The majority of Kelowna is flat ... so arguing that we need to think about the hills is again trying to argue the exception ... and same for the weather, 8 months of the year (66%) has pretty reasonable conditions that make it easy to use a bike, snow is the exception ...

[spooker]

Right, I think the mandated end-goal of EV adoption can likely be disastrous for industry and the economy in general, while any benefit is too small to care about. From manufacturing to recycling, no one calculates the addition of the charger industry. When 1.5B EVs are on the road, there will be at least 500M chargers all wanting updates, repairs and replacements with millions being made every year - powered by oil and gas.

I think a battery revolution is needed before EV is substantially meaningful. There are small EVs that probably don't meet North American crash standards... so we will never see those. Still a tiny $22000 Nissan Sakura for example is too expensive for it's capabilities. Yet another reason to have a battery revolution.

E-bikes are quite expensive for what they do, plus you can't tow a trailer with 2 tonnes of bricks or something like that. Certainly work still needs to be done in civilization. There have been a lot of fires too with small mobility devices. They are beginning to look dangerous.

Without the pressure of mandated purchasing of EVs there will not be a revolution in battery tech without lots of government subsidies and I can just hear the cries of "irresponsibility" getting thrown around with that idea ...

The cost of e-bikes is all over the place, you can spend minimal or you can blow out the budget ... they are still a lot less expensive than a car that will provide the same functionality in most cases ... but talking about how work still needs to get done is, like moarcowbell, arguing the exceptions ... there many more trips done with a single person not requiring more than a backpack or pannier worth of stuff than otherwise ... and if you get those single-occupancy vehicles out of the way the path for those who require hauling tools or goods around is much easier, everyone wins ...

My whole career has been spent trying to solve problems for people, can't solve it for everyone but if we can free up resources by providing a solution for a large amount easily then we can circle back around to find other ways to provide solutions for those left out the first time around ... knowing your background I would think you'd understand an iterative approach ...

[moarcowbell]

Again with the viewpoint that average vehicle use is an exception rather than a rule. Let's just agree to disagree, because I, and the vast majority strongly disagree. We don't live in the Netherlands, we don't live in Lotusland, and at time of writing this we still don't live in China. You can keep your mandated purchasing of EV's to yourself. In the meantime, I'll continue to drive my coworkers, tools and materials to work everyday to pay my taxes to give further ability to a government with their heads so far up their backsides with regards to mandating everything under the sun to keep rainbow warriors placated it's no wonder they've developed a distaste for cow farts.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not of the stance that EV's have no place. I am however, strongly opposed to an idiotic intervention by government mandating unachievable goals in an uneducated attempt replace ICE. It's patently clear the technology for cost effective EV mass production is not where it needs to be and clearly more than anything battery technology requires development light years from where it currently is in order for the dreamland expectations of those currently thinking the world is going to be a magically different place in less than 7 years. Simply not happening no matter how much governments try to force this fairytale.

[Jlabute]

Without the pressure of mandated purchasing of EVs there will not be a revolution in battery tech without lots of government subsidies and I can just hear the cries of "irresponsibility" getting thrown around with that idea ...

A battery revolution is happening. This is driven more by capitalistic competition, money, and scientific curiosity, not an exaggerated need. Incremental changes occur every few years, but something like Al-ion which can change the industry by an order of magnitude, takes time. It is better to wait for the best and more adoptable solution rather than having two parallel options running together. It generates a lot of waste and there is no rush for inadequate solutions.

The cost of e-bikes is all over the place, you can spend minimal or you can blow out the budget ... they are still a lot less expensive than a car that will provide the same functionality in most cases ... but talking about how work still needs to get done is, like moarcowbell, arguing the exceptions ... there many more trips done with a single person not requiring more than a backpack or pannier worth of stuff than otherwise ... and if you get those single-occupancy vehicles out of the way the path for those who require hauling tools or goods around is much easier, everyone wins ...

The E-bike you want is roughly $4000. Way over priced. The cost of a used vehicle. They do not have the same functionality as a car, since a car can carry 5 or more people from A to B, give all season protection, faster speeds, and the ability to carry large amounts of luggage far distances. Work needing to be done is not an exception, it is the rule. The auto industry would die by lack of sales if it were arbitrarily and severely restricted, then no one would be able to work. In a free market, people will purchase what they believe is the best solution for them. All industry altering mandates are counter productive.

Given the cost of E-bikes, the aging populations, the inadequate protection of bikes/scooters, and seasonal intermittency (etc), an expensive E-bike wouldn't suit many.

My whole career has been spent trying to solve problems for people, can't solve it for everyone but if we can free up resources by providing a solution for a large amount easily then we can circle back around to find other ways to provide solutions for those left out the first time around ... knowing your background I would think you'd understand an iterative approach ...

I prefer to begin my iterations when a minimally suitable technological platform is delivered.
If EVs had an AL-ion battery that could charge in minutes, cost 1/2 as much, and only 20 or so mega-watt charge stations in town were required, then MAYBE I'd jump on that. Any iterations previous to this are costly, wasteful, and maybe even more polluting.

[spooker]

I prefer to begin my iterations when a minimally suitable technological platform is delivered.
If EVs had an AL-ion battery that could charge in minutes, cost 1/2 as much, and only 20 or so mega-watt charge stations in town were required, then MAYBE I'd jump on that. Any iterations previous to this are costly, wasteful, and maybe even more polluting.

Yes, e-bikes could be considered a minimally suitable technological platform ... though you can find them below the $2000 price point which would suit many ... for a good portion of the year they would permit ease of transport and with the increase in cycling infrastructure also being built they start to ease congestion ...

Based on our capitalistic ways, anyone who is chasing the new battery tech needs to show that the ROI will be high enough for an investor ... as long as we have the motivation to buy EVs that will be a relatively easy sell, if we give up before pressuring the industry to find that solution we all lose ...

[SheilaO]

That would be right. Not to mention numerous freighters that have sunk carrying EVs. EVs are usually a quick write-off since one can't determine the health of the battery pack even after a small accident.

If premiums don't go up specifically for EVs, it is probably because we are all paying the premiums for EVs. As said - Ottawa doesn't care. Time for a new leader.

And firefighters don't like tackling EV battery fires. They are notoriously difficult and dangerous to extinguish, and burn very hot. But when our environment minister is a convicted felon (Has US entry waiver for criminality and is barred from Australia for past criminality), and the rest of the Liberal cabinet are satanic caballarians (ie: WEF young global leaders), our country is like a prison run by the inmates, or like the insane running the asylum. There is simply no common sense.