Tic ...Toc ... Israel

[maryjane48]

She is a left wing liar. She spouts of conspiracy theories and exaggerates/lies to promote her left agenda. Listening to her lying is akin to ripping my fingernails off, cutting my entire body with a razor blade and throwing me into a vat of acid.
She is a horrible person and an anti-Semite. She is no better than Hitler.

Lol where your proof? Joe isnt known to have liars on his show so if your willing to go tell joe in person ofcyour theories please film so rest of us can watch

[maryjane48]

Abby martin speaking to israelie folks

[maryjane48]

http://glbn.ca/pfVIfG


Looks like bibi in some hot water

[sobrohusfat]

is that what it looks like to you - that batch of delusional tw@ holding signs -

[JagXKR]

Abby Martin is a Jew hater. She is an anti-Semite. She is a terrorist apologist. Horrible person. Liar and the most biased "journalist" in the world. Hope Israel bans her from the country.

[Verum]

Abby Martin is a Jew hater. She is an anti-Semite. She is a terrorist apologist. Horrible person. Liar and the most biased "journalist" in the world. Hope Israel bans her from the country.

You might be right, but it would be extremely ignorant to ignore some of the appalling attitudes she has highlighted in this video. They aren't the norm for Israel, but they are there and need to be addressed. Both sides have to face their screwed up attitudes before we can hope for any progress. Diplomacy and compromise have taken a back seat to rhetoric and aggression by both sides. Much as in Northern Ireland, this is not simply a matter of one religion against another, but rather a much more complicated situation over simplified by most media. This is certainly not a case of good vs evil, or right vs wrong as some ignorant fools would have you believe.

[Glacier]

The problem is one side wants the other side dead. Yes, even among the most tolerant people on earth (and Jews are some of the most tolerant), you will find racists, bigots, and the like, but there's no pretending a moral equivalence exists between Israelis and Arabs.

[JagXKR]

So true. The total annihilation of Israel is what many of these nations have called for. They are the problem not Israel.

[Verum]

The problem is one side wants the other side dead. Yes, even among the most tolerant people on earth (and Jews are some of the most tolerant), you will find racists, bigots, and the like, but there's no pretending a moral equivalence exists between Israelis and Arabs.

I'm not saying that they are morally equivalent, it is far too complicated to claim that. Firstly, the groups of Arabs and Israelis are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, not all Jews are Israeli or pro-Israel, in fact, an increasing number are not only not pro-Israel with regards to its policy towards Palestinians, but are actively critical of Israel. In fact, not all Israeli Jews are in favour of Israel's policy towards Palestinians. Additionally, the behaviour of other countries towards Israel is essentially irrelevant when considering the relationship between Palestinians and Israel and to bring it up is simple whataboutery. It is a deflection technique used by people who want to excuse their own or others' behaviour by pointing at a different group engaged in similar or worse. Two wrongs simply do not make a right.

That said, it is clear that attitudes by many Palestinians are extreme, to the point of being extremely dangerous if left unchecked. Palestine with similar military power to Israel would be a scary thing indeed, but therein lies one of the most complicating factors of the whole situation, which is the power imbalance. Israel has the power to cause extreme suffering among Palestinians, something it has shown a willingness to do, but the converse is not true, even though Palestinian authorities have shown similar willingness. Therefore, otherwise relatively benign hatred expressed with extreme power is far more damaging than extreme hatred expressed with insignificant power. Are the related actions of Israelis and Palestinians morally equivalent? That is debatable, but both are deserving of serious levels of criticism and international scrutiny. Shutting down criticism of either group is to tacitly side with that group and excuse their reprehensible actions. It is similarly important to judge their respective actions and proportionality of them in light of the actions and effects that the other has on them.

[JagXKR]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... _of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport

[sobrohusfat]

I'm not saying that they are morally equivalent, it is far too complicated to claim that. Firstly, the groups of Arabs and Israelis are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, not all Jews are Israeli or pro-Israel, in fact, an increasing number are not only not pro-Israel with regards to its policy towards Palestinians, but are actively critical of Israel. In fact, not all Israeli Jews are in favour of Israel's policy towards Palestinians. Additionally, the behaviour of other countries towards Israel is essentially irrelevant when considering the relationship between Palestinians and Israel and to bring it up is simple whataboutery. It is a deflection technique used by people who want to excuse their own or others' behaviour by pointing at a different group engaged in similar or worse. Two wrongs simply do not make a right.

That said, it is clear that attitudes by many Palestinians are extreme, to the point of being extremely dangerous if left unchecked. Palestine with similar military power to Israel would be a scary thing indeed, but therein lies one of the most complicating factors of the whole situation, which is the power imbalance. Israel has the power to cause extreme suffering among Palestinians, something it has shown a willingness to do, but the converse is not true, even though Palestinian authorities have shown similar willingness. Therefore, otherwise relatively benign hatred expressed with extreme power is far more damaging than extreme hatred expressed with insignificant power. Are the related actions of Israelis and Palestinians morally equivalent? That is debatable, but both are deserving of serious levels of criticism and international scrutiny. Shutting down criticism of either group is to tacitly side with that group and excuse their reprehensible actions. It is similarly important to judge their respective actions and proportionality of them in light of the actions and effects that the other has on them.

two things you forgot to mention ...

You say not all Jews love Israel - that's true - but then not all arabs hate Israel/Jews either
Plenty of them would never want a "free free palestine - from the river to the sea" or for their children to live under arab rule ...NEVER - i wonder why.

Most of the "reprehensible actions" people criticize Israelis for are actually RE-actions and there's no excuse for the omission of all the facts and full context since Israel IS already so scrutinized in detail - none - it's deliberate or it's ignorance.

[Jflem1983]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport

When i listed this. I basically got told i was a bigot lol

[Verum]

two things you forgot to mention ...

You say not all Jews love Israel - that's true - but then not all arabs hate Israel/Jews either True, there are lots of obvious facts I didn't include. Also, the conflation of Israel and Jews is a fallacy and one we must get over if we are to resolve this problem as it makes it far to easy to treat this as a simply religious and emotive issue, when it is not simply religious and emotion needs to be taken out of it as much as possible.
Plenty of them would never want a "free free palestine - from the river to the sea" or for their children to live under arab rule ...NEVER - i wonder why. Are you saying that many Arabs wouldn't want to live under Arab rule whatsoever, ever? If so, I'd need to see evidence as that is a rather bold claim. Of course, if you mean that they would not want to be ruled by the Palestinian leadership groups, that's a reasonable and probably sensible attitude, but the idea that Arabs would in significant number not believe that an predominantly Arab leadership could rule sensibly and effectively seems unlikely to me.

Most of the "reprehensible actions" people criticize Israelis for are actually RE-actions and there's no excuse for the omission of all the facts and full context since Israel IS already so scrutinized in detail - none - it's deliberate or it's ignorance.

I agree that the full context is important and ignoring that Israeli actions are response to provocation is wrong. So is it wrong to ignore that Palestinian actions against Israel are reactions too. Would you accept that there is a need for proportional response and that breaking this cycle of constant reaction is crucial to building a lasting peace in the area?
Israel actively prevents full coverage of their actions and attempts to stop any and all intervention by UN or most other peaceful forces. Palestinian authorities engage in behaviour to prevent full and clear disclosure of their activities too and have been known to use International aid inappropriately and for violent purposes. Both sides are at fault and both sides need to start making compromises. Both need to stop breaking international laws and both need to negotiate in good faith. But the fact is that neither seems particularly interested in doing so. I personally cannot see a reasonable solution without significant outside involvement to attempt to break the stalemate.

[Verum]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport

It is sad that these countries deny those with Israeli passports access, but it is worth noting that Israel also effectively denies access to peoples of most of these countries and more besides. They put it under requiring special confirmation from the Israeli government, but it has much the same effect, travel to Israel is exceptionally difficult for people from most of these countries too. Interestingly, those who post this image, which I have seen a few times, never seem to address that it is essentially a bilateral travel barrier.

Israel's exceptional requirements for these travellers is still no excuse for those who reject all Israel issued travel documents, and certainly international pressure should be brought to bear to change this.

[Jflem1983]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport

It is sad that these countries deny those with Israeli passports access, but it is worth noting that Israel also effectively denies access to peoples of most of these countries and more besides. They put it under requiring special confirmation from the Israeli government, but it has much the same effect, travel to Israel is exceptionally difficult for people from most of these countries too. Interestingly, those who post this image, which I have seen a few times, never seem to address that it is essentially a bilateral travel barrier.

Israel's exceptional requirements for these travellers is still no excuse for those who reject all Israel issued travel documents, and certainly international pressure should be brought to bear to change this.

My buddy worked as a kosher chef in Canada and in Israel as well. He told me israel is full of arabs. In fact he told a funny story . He said all the arab buildings the air handlers on top the building would be painted bright white. On Jewish buildings they were painted black or dark. This was apparently done sp the air force. Would not bomb innocent jews .