Jones closing gap to Moore

[Snman]

Decency prevailed. Who'd have guessed, except Glacier. Glad I was wrong.

[Poindexter]

Republicans in Alabama who still voted for Moore, after all of the credible allegations, probably won't like who they see in the mirror this morning. It's not just the loss of the election they'll have to deal with but the loss of their own self respect. They paid quite a price by choosing party over values and in return they got nothing except an empty space where thier highly touted morality used to reside.

[techrtr]

Ha ha, the forces of racism and ignorance thought they had it in the bag. thank you good people of Alabama.

[RupertBear]

Republicans in Alabama who still voted for Moore, after all of the credible allegations, probably won't like who they see in the mirror this morning. It's not just the loss of the election they'll have to deal with but the loss of their own self respect. They paid quite a price by choosing party over values and in return they got nothing except an empty space where thier highly touted morality used to reside.

Unfortunately, I don't think that those who voted for Moore will feel that way.
Instead, I think they will look in the mirror and tell themselves that the president of the United States -- the man they voted for -- Donald Trump, told them that it is better to have a pedophile in office than a democrat, so they were just being patriotic and following the instructions of their president.

[Glacier]

Have you evidence of this?

Well, as ocassional thoughts pointed out when New Gingrich was in trouble, there are two different types of conservatives. There's a Steve Bannon hard-drinking, immoral, unfaithful, womanizing conservatives, and there are Christian conservatives. As per Ocassional Thoughts' notes, they make strange bed fellows. The Steve Bannon/Donald Trump wing is far less likely to care what moral misdeeds you're accused of than the other wing. My in-laws are Republican voters, and a good example of this divide. The FIL loved Trump thinking he was the best presidential candidate ever while the MIL who falls into the other wing of the Republican party couldn't stand him to such a degree that she did not vote Republican for the first time in her life.

[Omnitheo]

So many christians chose to stand behind Moore though.

[Verum]

Have you evidence of this?

Well, as ocassional thoughts pointed out when New Gingrich was in trouble, there are two different types of conservatives. There's a Steve Bannon hard-drinking, immoral, unfaithful, womanizing conservatives, and there are Christian conservatives. As per Ocassional Thoughts' notes, they make strange bed fellows. The Steve Bannon/Donald Trump wing is far less likely to care what moral misdeeds you're accused of than the other wing. My in-laws are Republican voters, and a good example of this divide. The FIL loved Trump thinking he was the best presidential candidate ever while the MIL who falls into the other wing of the Republican party couldn't stand him to such a degree that she did not vote Republican for the first time in her life.

Unfortunately for that narrative Christians in general voted for Trump. Especially White evangelical ones who voted for Trump with 81% support. Mainline Protestants voted 58% for Trump, Catholics voted 52% for Trump, and Mormons voted 61% for Trump. Jews, Atheists and non-Christian faiths voted for Trump at between 24% and 29%: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump. I suspect, though doubt I could find the numbers if I looked, that the majority of those who consider themselves to be Christians, and especially those who are evangelical Christians, who voted in this Alabama election, would have by a majority, supported Moore. It is a myth that Christians particularly demand moral fibre of their political leaders and I suspect such extends to their own personal behaviours too, with the case of the US being about the worst developed country for teenage pregnancy and STDs while also being about the only one to push abstinence-only sex ed widely. That is to say, by their own morality, which encourages abstinence, they are demonstrably failing miserably when compared with other countries who push a less Christian morality driven approach of actual sex-ed. It just seems to me that Christians aren't particularly good at behaving in a Christian manner.

[Queen K]

Seeing that Jones mopped the floor with Roy Moore in Alabama, I am heartened at last.

[Glacier]

Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump.

I speak in generalities, my friend. Large numbers of blacks who are also Christian came out to vote for Jones, though, according to my facebook feed, they were prevented from voting.

The more religious a person is, the more they care about moral issues (and therefore, less about economic issues). That's a very broad generality, and is only a generalization. There are more exceptions to the rule, but it's just a generality. When you have large numbers of black voters coming out to vote for Obama in California, they voted down prop-8 because they're more religious and conservative on social issues than most whites, left and right.

You are right that white evangelicals largely supported Trump, but digging down further reveals some nuance. For example, this Venn diagram from Katherine Hayhoe explains that evangelical and religious are not synonyms.

You can read several articles on why Trump won, and see that evangelicals are not really all that religious. Christianity for irreligious evangelicals is about politics, not God. In many ways, Trump represents a post-religious right, but since we're talking about a spectrum and in generalities, many evangelicals who are quite religious are more into politics than god/church/moral/spiritual matters, so they love trump too because of his politics. There are many irreligious conservatives who don't like Trump either, but as a general rule there is correlation between being religious and being against Trump when all else is equal, at least from what I've read.

As for Moore, clearly we've seen a MASSIVE shift in support away from him. It would be like of the NDP won the Peace River or West Kelowna in the Spring. It's a massive shift in voter support. I can't think of another election anywhere where this percentage of people switched sides.

Who were these people? I would guess that the vast majority were Christian (which isn't hard since pretty much everyone in that state is a Christian of one flavor or another), but I supposed the question is, where they the more religious ones or the cultural ones? Or was it a mix of both? It's hard to say, and to be honest, given the way politics is such a mixed *bleep*, it wouldn't be surprised either way.

[Poindexter]

Verum Wrote: Unfortunately for that narrative Christians in general voted for Trump.

And the reason is somewhat shocking.

Falwell told Time magazine in 2005 that the impact of “Left Behind” on Christianity was “probably greater than that of any other book in modern times,

This fiction novel is considered gospel by many and it claims that the Rapture will not occur unless Jerusalem is made the capital of Israel again. How messed up is that?

[Glacier]

This fiction novel is considered gospel by many and it claims that the Rapture will not occur unless Jerusalem is made the capital of Israel again. How messed up is that?

I saw that movie. Horrible movie, and doesn't match anything I got out of the Bible. It basically took all the allegories in Revelation, and pretended they were literal and take place today, and then added in this rapture bit, which is a modern 20th century invention.

As for Jerusalem, it is the capital city of Israel, and has been since 1948 (despite conspiracy theorist, white nationalist, Isamlofacist, and other Anti-Semetic claims to the contrary).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jerusal ... -1.4436795

[Verum]

Basically, it seems that those who consider themselves Christian, conservative or otherwise, largely support the likes of Trump.

I speak in generalities, my friend. Large numbers of blacks who are also Christian came out to vote for Jones, though, according to my facebook feed, they were prevented from voting.

voterturnout.jpg

The more religious a person is, the more they care about moral issues (and therefore, less about economic issues). That's a very broad generality, and is only a generalization. This is too broad a statement to be particularly meaningful.Do they care about their own morality, the morality of their leaders, the morality of others, imposing their morality on others, etc.? I would contend that the religious are more likely to care about the imposition of their morality on others (hence the support for Moore), than the non religious, but that the non religious are more concerned with the behaviour of their leaders (hence Al Franken). There are more exceptions to the rule, but it's just a generality. When you have large numbers of black voters coming out to vote for Obama in California, they voted down prop-8 because they're more religious and conservative on social issues than most whites, left and right. A good example of imposing one's own morality on others, rather than focusing on one's own morality or the morality of one's leaders.

You are right that white evangelicals largely supported Trump, but digging down further reveals some nuance. For example, this Venn diagram from Katherine Hayhoe explains that evangelical and religious are not synonyms.

evbeliefs.jpg

You can read several articles on why Trump won, and see that evangelicals are not really all that religious. Christianity for irreligious evangelicals is about politics, not God. In many ways, Trump represents a post-religious right, but since we're talking about a spectrum and in generalities, many evangelicals who are quite religious are more into politics than god/church/moral/spiritual matters, so they love trump too because of his politics. There are many irreligious conservatives who don't like Trump either, but as a general rule there is correlation between being religious and being against Trump when all else is equal, at least from what I've read.

Yes, there may be a correlation between being more religious within a group and being against the likes of Trump, while that group might be in general more pro-Trump than other groups, but that does not remove the fact that those who consider themselves to be Christian, voted for Trump and Moore. It may be a bitter pill to swallow for some, but the fact is that Christianity and particularly White Christianity in America is tied to support for the likes of Moore, Trump and their ilk and there are lots of numbers to support this. We can get into a sort of no-true-scotsman argument about what constitutes a Christian, but since we do not have an objective measurement of what it is to be more Christian or not, we must accept those who claim to be Christian at their word. And they do essentially define what it is to be Christian, no matter how un-Christ-like it may be. I'm not advocating for discrimination against Christians, but we should be particularly careful vetting them when they come to Canada (just kidding).

I hope that this marks the turning point, where Republicans and conservatives start rejecting the all too attractive populist politicians, the "fake news" rhetoric and rather get back to picking sensible, boring but capable people. Give us someone that intellectuals can vote for, someone who understands economics, foreign policy, making systems efficient and effective. Is that too much to ask for? It is sad that the Democrats and liberals seem to dominate in these areas these days.

[Urbane]

How yesterday's vote went by age in Alabama:

[maryjane48]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/ ... index.html


Why the gop should worry leading up to 2018

[Poindexter]

Listening to the coverage leading up to this election it reminded me of the coverage during the presidential election. Pundits have a tendency to pigeon hole voters into segments and in my opinion impact how each segment votes. For example, the turn out of black and millennial voters was said to be key for a Jones and Hillary victory. While that may be true, to signal out these two groups they're basically telling older white Conservatives that the democrats don't represent them. During the presidential election the media made the democrats out to be the party of immigrants and minorities. It's unfortunate because as history has proven, everyone in the economy has statistically done better financially when a democrat is in office.