Immigration policy

[fvkasm2x]

Alright so I created this thread because I want the topic to be separate from the insane going no right now (children in cages) because I am interested in POLICY and PRACTICE only.

If you want to debate the idiotic comparison to Nazi Germany, moral compass of Trump or anything else... please go there.


So for this thread let's discuss actual practices or solutions.

For the past 11 years or so there have only been 3 methods largely employed by the US government regarding illegal immigrants or asylum seekers:

1) Catch and release

Essentially they are arrested, documented and then let go after they are given a court date. They are then supposed to show up and go through the process of staying or being deported. Sadly, 82% of the people fail to show up. It's around 50% stay and deport of those who do show up. Court cases are often tried in absentia and then arrest warrants are issued because they didn't even show up for their case.

This is not a viable solution IMO because there is no way to know where these people go after they are let go.

2) Families are kept together and "detained" indefinitely until their appearance date.

This is not a viable solution. It's what previous governments practiced for the large majority of the previous administrations.

The amount of bed space, resources and professionals needed to run any sort of housing or "detention" center is mind blowing. This cannot be maintained for multiple months on end while waiting for their appearance.

There is no deterrent and the costs are in the billions of dollars annually.

We are doing this currently in Canada with the "irregular border crossers" and it's costing us taxpayers around $4.5 million a year and we have a fraction of the problem that America has. And that 4.5 million only covers food, medical, and housing. That figure doesn't incorporate salaries and manpower costs (police, nurses, government workers, etc...). Trudeau pledged $50 million recently to fight the "problem." The majority of the money will go to Quebec. They will get $36 million, while Ontario and Manitoba will get $11 million and $3 million respectively.

It's a huge financial burden.

3) Putting adults in adult detention centers and children in other places until families or sponsors can be found (current practice by Trump's government).

This is obviously very hard on children. You could be damaging an entire group of people mentally.

Is it really a deterrent for illegal immigration? It doesn't seem to be working.



So if none of the three solutions are ideal... does anyone have anything constructive to propose?

I hear a lot of "this is inhumane" but that's not really an answer to the problem.

[fvkasm2x]

See? Nothing.

Everyone wants to complain but nobody has a clue how to actually make things better.

[floppi]

See? Nothing.

Everyone wants to complain but nobody has a clue how to actually make things better.

What do you expect on an Internet forum? That's why we post.... to complain, to argue, to vent, to have some fun and to kill some time. I'm pretty sure no one have ever solved a single world's problem from this forum but i've certainly got to vent and complain to make myself feel better. I know it's not the answer you were looking for but it's all I got.

[Verum]

1. Catch and release did work, even if poorly. It almost certainly was the better approach from an economics point of view.
2. Yes, very expensive, but largely because it is run very poorly.
3. Unconscionable.

Your second option actually has a fairly simple fix and anyone with a bit of understanding of modern (as in since WW II) business practices would apply it, and that is just-in-time. It is imperative to keep the duration of detention as short as is necessary to suite the task of sorting who should and who shouldn't be allowed entry to the US. This can be from minutes to a week. Any longer than that should be extremely rare. All it takes is adequately staffing for processing of applicants, but the thing is that if you do this right it's much more efficient than building up a backlog and then processing it. The only reason whatsoever to support having a significant backlog is to use it as a deterrent, which it only is because it causes inhumane hardship on the people involved. I suspect that an efficiently run system would be cheaper than current systems, would be fairer, and would treat the applicants with dignity and without undue hardship.

It would almost certainly still be less economically beneficial than catch and release, but it would satisfy the fears of even the least welcoming of immigrants.

[floppi]

Perhaps I do have something to contribute. I've found other possible solutions on the net.

https://www.listland.com/top-10-solutio ... n-the-usa/

Of the 10 solutions on the above list. I like solutions 2, 3, 7 and 8.....and maybe 1.

Edit to add: The problem with solution #1 is that it ignores the rule of law and encourages future illegal immigration. It's also unfair and insensitive to the ones who have waited in line to immigrate legally. Still your talking about 11 million illegals that are already there.

[fvkasm2x]

Your second option actually has a fairly simple fix and anyone with a bit of understanding of modern (as in since WW II) business practices would apply it, and that is just-in-time. It is imperative to keep the duration of detention as short as is necessary to suite the task of sorting who should and who shouldn't be allowed entry to the US. This can be from minutes to a week.

Most recent stats show that the AVERAGE stay with option #2 was 452 days.

People in custody for over a year waiting for their hearing. That's insane

Perhaps I do have something to contribute. I've found other possible solutions on the net.

https://www.listland.com/top-10-solutio ... n-the-usa/

Of the 10 solutions on the above list. I like solutions 2, 3, 7 and 8.....and maybe 1.

Edit to add: The problem with solution #1 is that it ignores the rule of law and encourages future illegal immigration. It's also unfair and insensitive to the ones who have waited in line to immigrate legally. Still your talking about 11 million illegals that are already there.

Thanks. I will take a look

[floppi]

Your second option actually has a fairly simple fix and anyone with a bit of understanding of modern (as in since WW II) business practices would apply it, and that is just-in-time. It is imperative to keep the duration of detention as short as is necessary to suite the task of sorting who should and who shouldn't be allowed entry to the US. This can be from minutes to a week.

Most recent stats show that the AVERAGE stay with option #2 was 452 days.

People in custody for over a year waiting for their hearing. That's insane

What happened to the Flores Agreement that said the US government had to release them in 20 days?

[floppi]

I am interested in POLICY and PRACTICE only.

So for this thread let's discuss actual practices or solutions.

For the past 11 years or so there have only been 3 methods largely employed by the US government regarding illegal immigrants or asylum seekers:

1) Catch and release

This is not a viable solution IMO because there is no way to know where these people go after they are let go.

2) Families are kept together and "detained" indefinitely until their appearance date.

This is not a viable solution.
There is no deterrent and the costs are in the billions of dollars annually.
It's a huge financial burden.

3) Putting adults in adult detention centers and children in other places until families or sponsors can be found (current practice by Trump's government).

This is obviously very hard on children. You could be damaging an entire group of people mentally.
Is it really a deterrent for illegal immigration? It doesn't seem to be working.

So if none of the three solutions are ideal... does anyone have anything constructive to propose?

Sorry I edited you post to condense it for me

I think you already know my feeling on choice #3.

For the US the catch and release was one of the factors that led up to them having 11 million illegals as of 2015. That is about 3% of their total population so it's not an insignificant number. I read a stat in the pew research that said 66% or 7.3 million illegals have been living in the US for a decade. My opinion is that they should be fast tracted to citizenship, one time only. Afterall the presumption is that they have been contributing already to the economy.

I'm not sure if the US can detain the families forever as there is that Flores thing so they have to spend the money to keep them for 20 days. I would deport the ones that needed to and get the rest to agree to a gps inplant and come back to court and make their case.

Long term I would encourage major corporations to set up shop in Mexico like they were doing pre Trump. I believe the rate of Mexican emigrants to the US were dropping because there was no need to cross the border for a job. Recently most of the illegals were from countries like Honduras and Nicaragua. I believe a lot of them will stay in Mexico if there were jobs there for them.
Don't mention this to oldtrucker but I might consider trying to stabilize Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador through economic means. I'm sure if the immigrants had a choice they would have stayed in their own countries.


Anyhoo, that's all I got for now. How about you?

[Verum]

...
Most recent stats show that the AVERAGE stay with option #2 was 452 days.

People in custody for over a year waiting for their hearing. That's insane
...

Yes, seriously expensive and completely unnecessary with proper planning. Feeding, housing and supervising someone in those conditions has got to be very expensive, and managing the paperwork involved, since these courts rely on paper, is a logistical nightmare. Entire case files go missing, people remain in detention despite disappearing from the system, people end up in front of judges who have the wrong files in front of them, etc. It's a gong show and that's what the judges think.
Back in January there was an episode of This American Life which covered the courts involved. Even if you don't agree with the general attitudes of NPR and This American Life, one of the people whose comments they played is a high-ranking official with the National Association of Immigration Judges and his comments are enlightening to say the least.
Podcast: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/636/i-thought-it-would-be-easier
The transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/636/transcript

[Verum]

Before one implements an immigration policy, I think it is important to understand the facts about what, why and how one would implement such a policy and how to optimise the outcomes from such. There are far too many lies, half-truths and massive misconceptions out there and they disproportionately shape policy. If one is to come to a logical and rational conclusion, one must first reject such, reject the personal truths of ill-informed and misinformed people, and reject the claims made by politicians attempting to manipulate your beliefs for their own ends.

Here are a few pointers to information which completely goes against "common sense" and conventional "wisdom", and explains why current policies may be bad for all parties and worse still, denying a veritable win-win situation.

Illegal immigration doesn't increase violent crime:
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime

Immigration seems to decrease crime:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15377938.2016.1261057

"A 2017 study by the Cato Institute found that the incarceration rate for native-born Americans was 1.53%, compared to 0.85% for undocumented immigrants and 0.47% for legal immigrants - BBC"(PDF):
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/immigration_brief-1.pdf

Asylum seekers are not a burden on the economy, but a net benefit over time:
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/6/eaaq0883

"Immigration's Long-Term Impacts on Overall Wages and Employment of Native-Born U.S. Workers Very Small, Although Low-Skilled Workers May Be Affected, New Report Finds; Impacts on Economic Growth Positive, While Effects on Government Budgets Mixed":
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=23550

Japan's economic woes are in part due to its very low level of immigrant population:
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-japan-economy/

[floppi]

Your second option actually has a fairly simple fix and anyone with a bit of understanding of modern (as in since WW II) business practices would apply it, and that is just-in-time. It is imperative to keep the duration of detention as short as is necessary to suite the task of sorting who should and who shouldn't be allowed entry to the US. This can be from minutes to a week.

Most recent stats show that the AVERAGE stay with option #2 was 452 days.

People in custody for over a year waiting for their hearing. That's insane.

I think I know what happened here. I'm pretty sure the Flores Agreement is still in effect so they have to release the refugees from detention in 20 days. For some reason tho some refugees have been in detention for 7 years which would of course skew the stats.

http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/321/

Edit to add: nvm

[floppi]

Here's another link thar has some good ideas as well. I especially like #3....Institute a merit-based system similar to Canada’s, not to limit immigration, but improve it. I was also intrigued by #5 which was the transaction based consumption tax but I'm not sure how that would be implimented.

https://ivn.us/2018/01/09/common-sense- ... -politics/

Like I mentioned before I would make it easier for DACA participants to qualify for citizenship and fast Trac them. The requirements for dreamers to finish all the steps in the program is onerous. I bet 90% of Trump supporters couldn't finish the DACA program to become citizens.

[floppi]

See there were alternatives to jailing illegal emigrants but ICE and Trump shut them down. Self inflicted shot in the foot as is the style of the moron that sadly is the President of the US.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/03/1 ... _23384818/

[casey60]

I came from Europe. Had to go thru the proper channels. Was approved to immigrate to Canada. Had to pay my own way. Had to wait 5 years to become Canadian. No hand outs had to do it all myself. Should have crossed the border between Canada and the US. Would then have been taken care of. Guess I was the dummy?

[averagejoe]

I came from Europe. Had to go thru the proper channels. Was approved to immigrate to Canada. Had to pay my own way. Had to wait 5 years to become Canadian. No hand outs had to do it all myself. Should have crossed the border between Canada and the US. Would then have been taken care of. Guess I was the dummy?

Yes you could have been living for free! What were you thinking?