Ukraine war/President/news

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Drip_Torch
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Drip_Torch »

Huh, guess I didn't make my point clear enough. Hardly seems off topic to me, so I'll spell it right out.

On September 30th, 1938 Chamberlain sold out Czechoslovakia by allowing a fascist dictator to annex Sudetenland in exchange for peace between Britain and Germany. Suing for peace - I believe they call it.

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Of course, Churchill saw it differently and said, “You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war.”

I don't think I need to explain to anyone what happened next.

Fast forward 85 years to the day and we have history making a few rhymes.

On this very day in Moscow, a fascist dictator is celebrating the annexation of four Ukrainian territories and in the United States, we have the tribal fringe of the Republican Party attempting to pull funding required to help end the war that was brought to Ukraine.

All in all, I think the funding thing will prove meaningless. I mean, really it is meaningless. I suck at maths, but even I can figure out we're talking about enough money to run the United States for a few seconds less than 27 minutes.

Still interesting how two fascist dictators managed to arrive on September 30th as their annexation date - 85 years apart.

"Never again", they said - but the POW Russia paraded out at the illegal show trial the other day seems to show something different than that.

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I can't help but think Operation Unthinkable could have prevented all this.

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Last edited by Drip_Torch on Oct 1st, 2023, 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Merry
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Merry »

Comparing the Ukranian situation to what happened just prior to the Second World War is misleading, and ignores the part the West played in triggering the current Ukrainian conflict.

Nobody is defending Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, they were very wrong to do that. But we shouldn’t ignore the provocations that led up to it, and the reasons behind them.

If Russia had expanded its military alliances right up to the U.S. borders the way NATO did to Russia, I’m reasonably sure that the U.S. would also have reacted militarily. The Cuban crisis was a good example of such a reaction.

And American meddling in Ukranian internal affairs prior to the conflict is well documented. Financing a coup to overthrow a democratically elected Government that the Americans considered to be too friendly to Russia was just one of the many things the Americans did that contributed to the current conflict.

The Hunter Biden affair is a good example of how American commercial interests were invested in Ukraine, and also helps explain the American interest in general in Ukranian affairs. Because, at the end of the day, almost all conflicts can be traced back to commercial interests.

The American economic system has been based on America being engaged in or funding wars the World over ever since the end of WW2. Their industrial military machine has made billions from such conflicts. That fact is undeniable. Meanwhile, millions of ordinary people suffer and die as a result of all those conflicts, and there is no end in sight. When the Ukraine war finally ends, another will begin, and the cycle will continue.
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Drip_Torch
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Drip_Torch »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 1:23 am Comparing the Ukranian situation to what happened just prior to the Second World War is misleading, and ignores the part the West played in triggering the current Ukrainian conflict.

Nobody is defending Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, they were very wrong to do that. But we shouldn’t ignore the provocations that led up to it, and the reasons behind them.

If Russia had expanded its military alliances right up to the U.S. borders the way NATO did to Russia...
Russian propaganda aside, I think this is very much connected to unresolved issues from WWII. That's why I've come around to believe Operation Unthinkable would have been the right play at the time. We could have resolved the issues of self determination, sovereignty and freedom, without the threat of Nuclear war being thrown around like a child having a tantrum.

Russia has never extended it's borders the way NATO does. Russia extends its borders by force, with tanks, troops and missiles. NATO, on the other hand allows partner countries (such as Russia - :smt045 ) to make their own choice about whether or not to join NATO. To join NATO "--New members must be making progress toward a market economy. --Their military forces must be under firm civilian control. --They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders. --They must be working toward compatibility with NATO forces."

To join Russia, the fascist dictator decides to send in military force.

Congratulations Chechnya! You're now part of the Russian Federation.

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Poor, poor Tallinn, Estonia. They voted to join the NATO Alliance.

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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Merry »

The reason Operation Unthinkable was discarded was because there was no guarantee the West would fare any better following an invasion of Russia than the Germans did. Besides which, declaring war on Russia would have made our side no better than the folks we claim to defend against. ANY nation which uses military force to impose its political and/or economic will on others is an evil entity.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Drip_Torch »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 1:48 am The reason Operation Unthinkable was discarded was because there was no guarantee the West would fare any better following an invasion of Russia than the Germans did. Besides which, declaring war on Russia would have made our side no better than the folks we claim to defend against. ANY nation which uses military force to impose its political and/or economic will on others is an evil entity.
So, in essence, we tossed Eastern Europe under a bus and let the Soviet Union walk away with everything they had negotiated with Hitler through the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. In the end the Soviet Union used military force to impose its political and economic will on others and we stood by and let it happen.

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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 1:23 am Comparing the Ukranian situation to what happened just prior to the Second World War is misleading, and ignores the part the West played in triggering the current Ukrainian conflict.

Nobody is defending Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, they were very wrong to do that. But we shouldn’t ignore the provocations that led up to it, and the reasons behind them.

If Russia had expanded its military alliances right up to the U.S. borders the way NATO did to Russia, I’m reasonably sure that the U.S. would also have reacted militarily. The Cuban crisis was a good example of such a reaction.

And American meddling in Ukranian internal affairs prior to the conflict is well documented. Financing a coup to overthrow a democratically elected Government that the Americans considered to be too friendly to Russia was just one of the many things the Americans did that contributed to the current conflict.

The Hunter Biden affair is a good example of how American commercial interests were invested in Ukraine, and also helps explain the American interest in general in Ukranian affairs. Because, at the end of the day, almost all conflicts can be traced back to commercial interests.

The American economic system has been based on America being engaged in or funding wars the World over ever since the end of WW2. Their industrial military machine has made billions from such conflicts. That fact is undeniable. Meanwhile, millions of ordinary people suffer and die as a result of all those conflicts, and there is no end in sight. When the Ukraine war finally ends, another will begin, and the cycle will continue.
So if only Ukraine had let Russian tanks roll in, let Russians take over their airport, take down the Ukrainian government, let Russia "liberate" all their cities, the Russians would not have killed a bunch of "resistors", never would have gunned down innocent people in the streets to raise the terror leverl, and Ukraine could have peacefully just switched to not having their own country?
And why didn't they just do that? because we all know how reasonable and reliable Russia is with their promises (we aren't going to invade Ukraine, then they did). We know Russia would have been kind about just taking Ukrainian resources, taking over their government and ports, because they are such swell guys. Can't they all just be friends? And then the rest of the world could have gone on their merry way (except for maybe which ever countries were next on Russia's list. Knowing that the west would do absolutely nothing to interfere, what would stop Russia from taking any other country it wants?(but of course in a slightly less brutal way as long as they just surrender).
"Russia’s former leader Dmitry Medvedev warned Moscow could annex more of Ukraine a year on from when they first claimed Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson.

”The special military operation will continue until the complete destruction of the Nazi regime in Kyiv. Victory will be ours. And there will be more new regions within Russia,” Mr Medvedev said."
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Merry »

Continue to support this war if you want to, but be prepared for it to escalate into a “hot” war with Russia and, when that happens, be prepared to see your sons and daughters die fighting it.

If you don’t want to see that happen, start demanding NATO seek peace talks with Russia, and try to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Those are the only two choices.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by PoplarSoul »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 8:46 am Continue to support this war if you want to, but be prepared for it to escalate into a “hot” war with Russia and, when that happens, be prepared to see your sons and daughters die fighting it.

If you don’t want to see that happen, start demanding NATO seek peace talks with Russia, and try to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Those are the only two choices.
Before and after the illegal invasion of Ukraine, Zelensky asked numerous times for Putin to come to the table and negotiate.
He refused every single time.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by GordonH »

PoplarSoul wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 9:00 am
Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 8:46 am Continue to support this war if you want to, but be prepared for it to escalate into a “hot” war with Russia and, when that happens, be prepared to see your sons and daughters die fighting it.

If you don’t want to see that happen, start demanding NATO seek peace talks with Russia, and try to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Those are the only two choices.
Before and after the illegal invasion of Ukraine, Zelensky asked numerous times for Putin to come to the table and negotiate.
He refused every single time.
This raises a curious question, what exactly is Putin afraid of in having talks.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by gertlush »

GordonH wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 9:11 am
PoplarSoul wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 9:00 am

Before and after the illegal invasion of Ukraine, Zelensky asked numerous times for Putin to come to the table and negotiate.
He refused every single time.
This raises a curious question, what exactly is Putin afraid of in having talks.
1 - who exactly would he talk to? The White House cabbage? Jabba the Nuland? Who is in charge in the West?

2 - we'd just lie and break our word... again...
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by gertlush »

One huge problem in the Western approach is the WW2 goggles. Our elites are ahistorical morons, their only knowledge of military conflict is this cartoonish representation of evil Nazis vs. Noble Us.

Then, when you get into the academics, they are ideologically blinkered. Read Condi Rice's work, look at the groaning bookshelves filled with variations of "Evil commie-nazi Putin wants to take over world".

Their is no nuance, no subtlety, its "Stormtrooper syndrome" i believe it is called.

Russia and China are much more clearsighted and goal directed.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Drip_Torch »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 8:46 am Continue to support this war if you want to, but be prepared for it to escalate into a “hot” war with Russia and, when that happens, be prepared to see your sons and daughters die fighting it.

If you don’t want to see that happen, start demanding NATO seek peace talks with Russia, and try to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Those are the only two choices.
Nah, there's a third choice and we're seeing it play out right now. Give Ukraine enough support for the war to keep going "as long as it takes". It's good for arms sales and Russian hegemony in the eastern block countries. In a way, this is better than what was happening under Yeltsin.

It's great for western arms sales!

We could give Ukraine enough weapons to repel the attack, but then what? A collapse of a nuclear power is a scary thing and yet, in the end, that is what is likely to happen. Russian soldiers don't come from Moscow and St Petersburg (Russia), they come from all the ethnic areas of the Federation and sooner or later that will be noticed. We're already seeing those tensions build.

The whole Koran burning thing, with Kadyrov's kid beating up the captured Russian on TV being just one example.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by gertlush »

But really, at the end of the day... Uncle Sam is all hat, no cattle. We ain't gonna fight Russia for some loser country in Eastern Europe.

Look at Canada! Those Leopard tanks we sent? They will never, ever be replaced. We are cutting our budget but posturing like big boys... you don't think Russia, China, India see us for the cupcakes we are [icon_lol2.gif]
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Drip_Torch »

GordonH wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 9:11 am
PoplarSoul wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 9:00 am

Before and after the illegal invasion of Ukraine, Zelensky asked numerous times for Putin to come to the table and negotiate.
He refused every single time.
This raises a curious question, what exactly is Putin afraid of in having talks.
Appearing weak.
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Re: Ukraine war/President/news

Post by Silverstarqueen »

Merry wrote: Oct 1st, 2023, 8:46 am Continue to support this war if you want to, but be prepared for it to escalate into a “hot” war with Russia and, when that happens, be prepared to see your sons and daughters die fighting it.

If you don’t want to see that happen, start demanding NATO seek peace talks with Russia, and try to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Those are the only two choices.
How do they negotiate with a guy who doesn't keep his word?
Putin has already shown, by his actions, what his intentions are. If they were peaceful, he would have proceeded peacefully. He has already said what he expects: Ukraine must surrender, but he cannot be trusted, even if he said, fine in exchange for your surrender, we let the rest live.
TALKS MEAN NOTHING when dealing with liars. so actions are the only language they know and understand. Russia can pull out and stop bombing at any time. No one is stopping them.

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