#MeToo

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Jack DeBear » Mar 3rd, 2018, 1:49 pm

“. . . (Monica Lewinsky) critiques the culture that put a 24-year-old through the wringer and calls out the feminists who joined the chorus.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/societ ... on-culture
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Re: #MeToo

Postby fvkasm2x » Mar 3rd, 2018, 4:01 pm

Jack DeBear wrote:“. . . (Monica Lewinsky) critiques the culture that put a 24-year-old through the wringer and calls out the feminists who joined the chorus.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/societ ... on-culture


That's really quite an interesting situation and one that can have people arguing for years in circles.

On one hand:

Female sexuality, equality, etc... She can choose her partners and do what she wants. Sexual liberation, freedom and all other encompassing terms you want. Don't shame her for sex and don't treat her like a victim because she has sex.

But then...

He used his position of power and influence to seduce her. He took advantage of her and used his position to take take take. She is a victim and when people use power to get sex, it can easily be considered rape.

Both are correct and there's really no way to argue that one is right and the other is wrong.

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Jack DeBear » Mar 3rd, 2018, 5:20 pm

Sure.

And when powerful women turn a blind eye . . .?

In the essay I posted, Monica says the main reason the feminists didn’t lend her any support was because they considered her trash (in all ways beneath the others in Clinton's stable) and Clinton was friendly to the feminist cause so they didn’t want to see any additional waves over her case.

It’s a reason that is supported in this article via an internal link.

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1998 ... iams199805
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 3rd, 2018, 7:28 pm

Jack DeBear wrote:“. . . (Monica Lewinsky) critiques the culture that put a 24-year-old through the wringer and calls out the feminists who joined the chorus.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/societ ... on-culture

fvkasm2x wrote:That's really quite an interesting situation and one that can have people arguing for years in circles.

On one hand:

Female sexuality, equality, etc... She can choose her partners and do what she wants. Sexual liberation, freedom and all other encompassing terms you want. Don't shame her for sex and don't treat her like a victim because she has sex.

But then...

He used his position of power and influence to seduce her. He took advantage of her and used his position to take take take. She is a victim and when people use power to get sex, it can easily be considered rape.

Both are correct and there's really no way to argue that one is right and the other is wrong.


Lewinsky is quite clear that the relationship was consensual, so she is not claiming the pres forced himself on her, or had her do anything that she wasn't willing to. Or that he used power to get sex, so she did not claim it was harassment(unwanted), no she never claimed anything remotely like rape. So not a #MeToo example.
She can choose her partners, but I think most married and single people would say it is shameful for her and Clinton to violate his marriage vows. I doubt that feminists would support that.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Jack DeBear » Mar 4th, 2018, 7:29 am

From what I've read, it seems to me they did support it.

Here's the intro to the second article I posted yesterday.

Clinton and Women

President Clinton’s sordid entanglements with Jenifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and now Monica Lewinsky, have drawn barely a squeak of protests from the powerful writers, lawyers, activists, politicians, and academics who call themselves feminists. As they struggle with fresh allegations from Kathleen Willey, the author reveals some ugly truths about the women’s movement and the commander in chief.

<snip>

https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/199 ... iams199805

And Lewinsky describes her experiences with the women’s movement in the first article I posted.

“Shame and Survival”

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/societ ... on-culture

Yes, both articles are long.

But I found them both engaging as well as fascinating.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby averagejoe » Mar 12th, 2018, 4:09 pm

:spitcoffee:

Image
Kristen Dunst wears black to oppose male objectification of women. #MeToo
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 12th, 2018, 6:35 pm

For those who think harassment and sexual assault on the job are either not happening or not an important issue because it is just part of earning a living.(Edmonton, not movie stars)

http://canoe.com/news/national/female-g ... harassment
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 13th, 2018, 7:55 am

averagejoe wrote::spitcoffee:


Kristen Dunst wears black to oppose male objectification of women. #MeToo

Her name is Kirsten, not Kristen.
While Kirsten Dunst does look smashing in that outfit, she did not wear it as any part of the #MeToo protest. This photo is of her outfit for the 2016 Golden Globes, that was so year before last year, long before the MeToo movement got rolling. She wore it because that's what actressses do, dress up for big occasions.

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 13th, 2018, 8:22 am

Multiple allegations against U.s. Figureskating coach, reported 20 years ago, nothing was done till now. So the #MeToo movement is accomplishing something. Maybe not for those who were abused in the past, but hopefully to prevent abuse for others in the future.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/top-coach-susp ... d=53637051

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Gixxer » Mar 13th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Just curious why arent there any victims with rock stars or professional sports players?
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 16th, 2018, 6:04 pm

More allegations against doctor doing exams for the RCMP.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4087917/form ... applicant/
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 16th, 2018, 6:31 pm

A lot of women want to feel safer in their choice of ride options:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/safe-ride ... -1.3838070
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Jack DeBear » Mar 29th, 2018, 3:28 pm


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Re: #MeToo

Postby Silverstarqueen » Mar 29th, 2018, 6:47 pm

Keeping sexual assault "private" hasn't worked very well for the victims, it does work great for the offenders.

Yes, sexual assault is difficult to prosecute, but once you have a dozen, or forty, or a hundred victims lined up who have given their stories to the authorities. I think a jury or judge can certainly at least take time to look at the evidence, the prosecutors can take time to present the evidence. The public can certainly hear all that, and draw conclusions. How many victims does it take before we believe them? That will be different for each situation probably, but that does not mean that we cannot deal with these types of assaults. Even non sexual assault has it's difficulties being proven. Murder, or attempted murder is not always easy to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (just look at the Van Diesen case for one example). Still we try to go thru the judicial process, with sometimes more or less success. That doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and refuse to deal with it.
Before the MeToo movement the vast majority of sexual assaults and harassment went unreported, and certainly un-investigated or prosecuted. Now a small percentage of assaults are being brought forward, women, men, children are becoming much more determined to at least get their case known and (if statute of limitations hasn't passed, or evidence can still be brought forward) attempt to report to the authorities.

I don't know if universities or schools are very well equipped to do what is necessary, but they can have clear hiring policies that indicate that sexual relations between educators and students pollute the educational process and create a conflict of interest for the professor. Should that result in firing the employee, or should it involve a slap on the wrist, or some sanction in between ? How would we feel about military officers, prison guards, police officers or lawyer, or jurors, having sexual relations with their inmates, clients, or arrested individuals? Of course there should be standards, and they should be maintained, and where appropriate some people should be fired, or reassigned to other duties indefinitely. If there are no consequences, or prosecutions or judegments are never made, standards are never maintained, well that sort of behavior isn't going to change is it?

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Jack DeBear » Mar 30th, 2018, 8:18 am

Well covered and well said, Silverstarqueen :up:

Honestly, I was stuck and 'trolling' for an adept comeback.

Also, ‘scandalous’ or not, I think Dr. Peterson has overlooked this as a fact:

By Toula Drimonis in Opinion, Politics, Culture | January 25th 2018

The tweets started circulating barely six hours after I watched the live and long-overdue sentencing of Larry Nassar, the former U.S. gymnastics doctor accused by more than 160 women of sexual abuse over two entire decades.

I checked my social media feed: two women had come forward with sexual misconduct allegations against Ontario Progressive Conservative leader Patrick Brown.

<snip>

Within hours, a visibly-shaken Brown had invited reporters to a news conference where he denied the allegations and vowed to fight them “with everything he has.” He refused to resign or answer any questions, saying he’d be “back at work tomorrow.”

The press quickly learned from a joint statement that all three members of his senior staff had resigned in advance of his presser in reaction to the allegations.

Mere hours later, Brown resigned while still denying the allegations, dating back to his time as a federal MP, as “categorically untrue.” Citing his allegiance to the party and alluding to the fact that these allegations would make it hard for them to beat Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne in the upcoming election, he opted to step down.

The news about Brown came the same day Nova Scotia Progressive Conservative leader Jaimie Baillie was forced out over similar allegations of inappropriate behaviour, including sexual harassment.

Overnight, allegations of harassment surfaced against federal Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities Kent Hehr. He did not deny these allegations, but on Thursday, resigned from his ministerial duties while an investigation is ongoing. He will continue to serve as MP.

What are the odds of back-to-back stories of sexual harassment in Canada dominating a 24-hour news cycle?

Pretty good, actually.

<snip>

An onslaught of cases within two days

Within hours of Brown’s resignation in the wee hours Thursday, a disturbing new story of alleged abuse of power and trust broke in Quebec. Provincial police are investigating former Quebec gymnastics coach Michel Arsenault for sexual assault allegations. Radio-Canada Sports reported that he is named in complaints to police from several women in the past few days.

The seven complainants were between 10 and 20 at the time of the alleged incidents. Police said suspected more victims might come forward during the investigation.

In case it slipped our collective consciousness, it was only a month ago that a Quebec court sentenced former national ski coach Bertrand Charest to 12 years for 37 charges of sexual assault, dating back to the 1990s. The victims were all competitive skiers between the ages of 12 and 19 at the time of the attacks, and testified that Charest was a ruthless predator who destroyed them and their love for their sport.

The Brown allegations and Arsenault sentencing are just the high-profile ones in the spotlight in over a 24-hour period. At the same time, news also broke that Coach House poetry board member Jeremy Dodds has been accused of sexual impropriety, prompting the prestigious publishing house to temporarily place its poetry program on hiatus.

Since this involves a relatively small group of people at an independent publishing press and poetry program, few people may read about this case. But it’s just one more accusation in a string of accusations rocking Canadian Literature after the Concordia University cases.

The backlash continues

While the onslaught of new accusations is coming fast and furiously, the predictable backlash against #MeToo continues: it’s too angry, too vengeful, too confused, too far-reaching, too questionable, too arbitrary, too ready to play “judge, jury and executioner,” — too much of everything.

The implications at the heart of the criticism is always that level heads need to prevail, and that an army of women engaged in histrionics are ruining it for the few cases worthy of consideration. You know the ones; the ones involving masturbating into potted plants and rape.

Everything else is subject to consideration and suspicion. After all, not everything can be sexual abuse, right?

But what if it is? What if case after case after case is revealing the ugly truth festering under the thin veneer of civility and justice for all? What if the bad ones aren’t the exception; what if there are more of them than we thought? After all, how many legitimate accusations can we dismiss as frivolous, before we start to realize that they comprise the norm? A norm we should have never convinced ourselves was normal.

The clues that we, as a society, require a proper dismantling and reprogramming in the ways that we treat sexual abuse allegations and the victims who come forward, is hiding in plain sight in the public discourse currently unfolding.

Calgary-Centre MP Kent Hehr . . . <snip>

There are questions we should be asking

Many have questioned Judge Aquilina’s “harsh” tone during Nassar's sentencing, and how it communicated bias. In fact, given that Nassar had already pled guilty months ago, the judge had absolutely no obligation to be impartial. She chose, instead, to stand as champion and defender of these young women.

In sharp contrast, what strikes me as deeply unfortunate is why more people aren't questioning how a grown man placed in a position of power and trust decided to abuse children, and how U.S.A. Gymnastics and Michigan State allowed it to go on for so long? Those questions should have been asked long ago.

Given the June election in Ontario, some are questioning the timing of the accusations against Brown. His party appeared to have a good chance at unseating incumbent Wynne, prompting some critics to suspect a conspiracy or smear job in advance of the vote.

Twitter is awash with partisan hot takes about what the allegations will mean for the Ontario Conservatives down the road. Politics is a blood sport and so the news will be greeted accordingly by friends and foes and pundits. But why aren’t they questioning how the victims are, how it affected their careers, their outlook on life, their self-esteem, and their ability to trust?

Time to start a spreadsheet?

Some are questioning the severity of the “sexual misconduct” allegations at work, the legitimacy or fairness of the accused being condemned in the “court of public opinion,” instead of the court of law. They seem to forget or are unaware that, because of defamation laws, accusers and media outlets won’t print someone’s name unless they have irrefutable proof and several people corroborating the story.

And besides, why aren’t they questioning why so many victims are consistently choosing to go to the media with these allegations, because their faith in the judicial system has been so compromised?

The stories of men in positions of power and trust, accused of abusing those younger and more vulnerable, are multiplying with such speed, one feels the need to start employing an Excel sheet to keep better tabs.

Survivors are everywhere and they've now gained a voice. The doubting Thomases are everywhere, too. What they say and how they dismiss, derail and deny matters.

You can look at the ever-growing list of accused and choose to see a movement that’s “gone too far” or you can finally acknowledge that we have a serious problem that we need to fix.

<snip>

#MeToo is cleaning house

American actor Terry Crews, who has also come forward as a victim recently, said “the #MeToo movement isn’t a witch hunt; it’s a fumigation.” I tend to agree. The movement is exactly where it needs to be and doing exactly what it’s supposed to be doing: cleaning house, making the bad guys run.

If it feels to some that the movement has “gone too far,” it’s only because it was so damn quiet before. It's only because the extent and scope of the victims' claims is so extensive and all-encompassing. As of now, is there a single field, department, sector, or one single area that has been unaffected by #MeToo?

Extremely doubtful.

Day after day, allegation after allegation, conviction after conviction, I continue to be in awe of the people brave enough to come forward with their personal and painful stories. I continue to be grateful for their truth. I believe that something better will come out of this for all of us. Except for abusers, of course.

Time’s Up for them.
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/0 ... -hat-metoo
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