Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.
rustled
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14717
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by rustled »

fluffy wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 3:48 pm
rustled wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 3:12 pmIt seems to me you see everyone who disagrees with your stance on using political force to impose what you see as progressive policies as a member of the "alt-right".
In the case of lowering GHG emissions, which in our case means reducing consumption of fossil fuels, change is not going to come about voluntarily.
You seem to have faith that lowering GHG emissions is essential - as per the alarmist dogma of Dr. Stephen Schneider et al. Those of us who can see that the prophesies of these "high priests" of the CAGW have failed - utterly - no longer share your faith in their predictions, and so we are no longer alarmed by their prophesizing.

Which is why it doesn't sit well with us for them to use "for the greater good" as an excuse for using political force to do harm to people, to excuse doing harm to the environment, and to excuse their part in growing the divide between those who must pay for others to profit in the name of "green".

You also seem to have faith that controlling the climate can come about through taxation and coercion - if so, I do not share your faith.
rustled
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14717
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by rustled »

Ka-El wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 3:51 pm
nucksRnum1 wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 3:22 pm

In my opinion - what some portray as "honest" discussion - is in fact disingenuous. And lengthly. Because it just keeps going in circles.
The repeated use of different versions of the old "that's what you are but what am I?" comebacks are also amusing. Just can't take any responsibility for their own behavior and have to continuously attempt to displace blame.
It seems to me you rely on this tactic of misrepresenting the posts of the people who don't agree with you, whenever you're unable to respond to what they've actually said. This suggests to me that you're unable to respond rationally to people who don't agree with your ideology - similar to adherents of various religions.

In this thread we've been discussing this religious-like tendency for people to think they're doing the right thing when using political force to impose change "for the greater good" - ergo, people that don't agree with their version of "the right thing" are "wrong":
Sparki55 wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 10:25 amIf you think you stand on some moral high ground for the greater good of humanity right now, just remember at other points in history there have been arguments made for the "greater good" that would not hold up today.
User avatar
Ka-El
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 13019
Joined: Oct 18th, 2015, 9:19 am

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by Ka-El »

rustled wrote: It seems to me you rely on this tactic of misrepresenting the posts of the people who don't agree with you, whenever you're unable to respond to what they've actually said.
Irony is also amusing [icon_lol2.gif]
Stop hate: don't feed the alt-right troll
User avatar
PoplarSoul
Übergod
Posts: 1675
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2021, 12:27 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by PoplarSoul »

Ka-El wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:10 pm
rustled wrote: It seems to me you rely on this tactic of misrepresenting the posts of the people who don't agree with you, whenever you're unable to respond to what they've actually said.
Irony is also amusing [icon_lol2.gif]

:up: :up: :up:
"The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance."
Alan Watts
rustled
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14717
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by rustled »

Ka-El wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:10 pm
rustled wrote: It seems to me you rely on this tactic of misrepresenting the posts of the people who don't agree with you, whenever you're unable to respond to what they've actually said.
Irony is also amusing [icon_lol2.gif]
Posts like this seem to me to prove you're unable to present a legitimate argument for the use of political force to impose the public policies that support your ideology - and unable to present a legitimate response to those who disagree with using political force to impose public policies that support your ideology.

:topic: fluffy and I were discussing ethanol as an example of how using political force "for the greater good" can go terribly wrong and do more harm than good.
Last edited by rustled on Dec 5th, 2021, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23076
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by fluffy »

rustled wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:07 pmIn this thread we've been discussing this religious-like tendency for people to think they're doing the right thing when using political force to impose change "for the greater good" - ergo, people that don't agree with their version of "the right thing" are "wrong".
That's what you've been discussing, but you don't appear to be making any headway.

If the prevailing evidence dictates a proper course of action, then political "force" is justified. A duly elected government has that power, we give it to them in the polling booth. It's quite straightforward actually.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
rustled
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14717
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by rustled »

fluffy wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:20 pm
rustled wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:07 pmIn this thread we've been discussing this religious-like tendency for people to think they're doing the right thing when using political force to impose change "for the greater good" - ergo, people that don't agree with their version of "the right thing" are "wrong".
That's what you've been discussing, but you don't appear to be making any headway.
One seldom appears to make significant "headway" when one is calling into question the deep-seated faith-based beliefs of others. I'm ok with that.
fluffy wrote:If the prevailing evidence dictates a proper course of action, then political "force" is justified.
Where was the prevailing evidence to support ethanol? In the CAGW alarmism of Dr. Stephen Schneider, et al?

That was not evidence. It was, as both he and John Cook have openly admitted, manipulation. The prophesies of CAGW failed. The evidence clearly shows they were wrong. You may still believe their "the end is nigh" prophesizing, but many do not.
fluffy wrote: A duly elected government has that power, we give it to them in the polling booth. It's quite straightforward actually.
Yup. The gullible masses provided the impetus for ethanol, etc., consequences be damned. Just as so many times before, throughout history, people have done the same when following the siren call of "for the greater good".
Kel0wna
Fledgling
Posts: 100
Joined: Sep 16th, 2015, 4:58 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by Kel0wna »

rustled wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 4:28 pm One seldom appears to make significant "headway" when one is calling into question the deep-seated faith-based beliefs of others. I'm ok with that.
:up: :up: :up:
User avatar
Catsumi
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 10882
Joined: May 24th, 2017, 8:26 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by Catsumi »

Rustled said:

“Posts like this seem to me to prove you're UNABLE to present a legitimate argument for the use of political force to impose the public policies that support your ideology - and UNABLE to present a legitimate response to those who disagree with using political force to impose public policies that support your ideology.”



Unable and unwilling to prove their thesis. Just smear and denigrate any opposition to the mantra of “ hey there, we have a great idea that can only work by force… get onboard now or we will continue to put you down.

Rustled has more patience than most in persisting to show up the fallacies in far left “thinking”.
“A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory.” - Mark Twain

“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” – Edward Abbey
foenix
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4676
Joined: Mar 30th, 2020, 1:30 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by foenix »

Catsumi wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 5:59 pm
Rustled has more patience than most in persisting to show up the fallacies in far left “thinking”.
Too bad the shield has collapsed tho.
User avatar
fluffy
Buddha of the Board
Posts: 23076
Joined: Jun 1st, 2006, 5:42 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by fluffy »

Catsumi wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 5:59 pmRustled has more patience than most in persisting to show up the fallacies in far left “thinking”.
I'd say she has has more persistence than patience. As to just who is pushing fallacies here, my mind is made up, I'll trust other readers to come to their own conclusions.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
nucksRnum1
Übergod
Posts: 1740
Joined: Jul 2nd, 2021, 1:55 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by nucksRnum1 »

fluffy wrote: Dec 6th, 2021, 7:59 amI'd say she has has more persistence than patience. As to just who is pushing fallacies here, my mind is made up, I'll trust other readers to come to their own conclusions.
Exactly. The "patience" remark is patronizing. And I simply think that some people like to quibble in huge replies in "quote" form. Telling everyone that they are "partisan" while being absolutely "partisan" themself. It's like this person feels that the only relevant partisanship is a conservative one. All else are patronized for having an opinion that isn't conservative. I am just glad that more posts are not redacted as they were in the past.
rustled
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 14717
Joined: Dec 26th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by rustled »

fluffy wrote: Dec 6th, 2021, 7:59 am
Catsumi wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 5:59 pmRustled has more patience than most in persisting to show up the fallacies in far left “thinking”.
I'd say she has has more persistence than patience. As to just who is pushing fallacies here, my mind is made up, I'll trust other readers to come to their own conclusions.
I think most people understand that the CAGW alarmism and subsequent political force used to "push" ethanol as an alternative to fossil fuels were necessary for creating the opportunities for profiteers - opportunities with very negative consequences you'd prefer we don't discuss.

While you asked for a specific to respond to, it disappoints but does not surprise that your response is to dismiss it as a fallacy, rather than acknowledge the harms done by those pushing public policy "for the greater good".

And while I could provide another specific for you to respond to, there's little point when - as you say - your mind IS made up. This is the same sort of faith-driven mindset that is part and parcel of what was referred to in the OP:
Sparki55 wrote: Nov 2nd, 2021, 10:25 amIf you think you stand on some moral high ground for the greater good of humanity right now, just remember at other points in history there have been arguments made for the "greater good" that would not hold up today.
It has long interested me that so many people who insist they are "doing good" by pushing public policy "for the greater good" take no responsibility for the negative outcomes of the public policies they've pushed for.
User avatar
PoplarSoul
Übergod
Posts: 1675
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2021, 12:27 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by PoplarSoul »

Catsumi wrote: Dec 5th, 2021, 5:59 pm Rustled has more patience than most in persisting to show up the fallacies in far left “thinking”.
What fallacies are those?
All I see is word salad.
Maybe you can explain it better.
"The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance."
Alan Watts
foenix
Lord of the Board
Posts: 4676
Joined: Mar 30th, 2020, 1:30 pm

Re: Ethical Arguments Against Political Force

Post by foenix »

Sparki55 wrote: f you think you stand on some moral high ground for the greater good of humanity right now, just remember at other points in history there have been arguments made for the "greater good" that would not hold up today.
rustled wrote: Dec 6th, 2021, 10:10 am It has long interested me that so many people who insist they are "doing good" by pushing public policy "for the greater good" take no responsibility for the negative outcomes of the public policies they've pushed for.
But of course, when it's "your side" that pushes these public policies "for the greater good" and results in "negative outcomes", it's OK then if they are either ignored, deflected or take no responsibility for them but that's how partisanship works, hey?

Return to “Social Concerns”