The push to end homelessness.

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.
User avatar
CorkSoaker
Board Meister
Posts: 382
Joined: Dec 19th, 2010, 8:51 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by CorkSoaker »

Methadone is part of the harm reduction strategy. It doesn't get someone as high but helps with the withdrawal symptoms; it is prescribed to help people overcome opioid dependency. So whats your issue with that?

I suppose you also have an issue with insite and would rather those poor folks overdose and die in the alleyways.
Last edited by CorkSoaker on Apr 25th, 2013, 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

It is often said that truth is the first casualty of any war
Prestige Mike
Board Meister
Posts: 373
Joined: Feb 12th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by Prestige Mike »

james-d wrote:Our govt, they are called methadone treatment centers, You are helping to pay for it.


Perhaps giving junkies free drugs would be a good thing. There would be less theft, prostitution, extortion, etc if people didn't have to pay for their $200 a day addiction.

The government of Canada could buy opium and cocaine for pennies on the dollar.

The drugs could be dispensed in drug rehabilitation centers, where social workers and drug councilors would be on hand at all times for those on the fence about treatment.

Car insurance would go down if there were less break ins. Public health costs would go down if there were less overdoses and emergencies involving drug users.

Exploitation of women drug users would go down, as there would be less need to prostitute or rely on abusive men for their fix.

Gangsters would lose power/money as they lose many high paying customers for their drugs

Some times you need to think outside the box a little. Right now, the way we deal with drugs is not working. Perhaps we should trying something new
User avatar
Ken7
Guru
Posts: 8626
Joined: Sep 30th, 2007, 4:09 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by Ken7 »

Trigger69 wrote:As much as I agree that homelessness is a social problem I have to say the reason we are closing the treatment centers is because they do not work for the most part when it concerns the homeless. When one goes to a treatment center the treatment doesnt end there, the person needs continued care and a solid support system AFTER or they will slip back into the vortex of substance abuse or continue with the mental health issues at the next hiccup. As you can see this is where the problem lies with the homeless, once they are finished with the treatment center (suessfull or not) they are out on the streets vulnerable to all that the streets can offer (ie. drugs, alcohol etc) with little to no support system in place.
I have stated this for years and what I am about to say is going to shock and aww some of you but before you react THINK about it. As a down town core Kelowna (and other cities near by) it is counter productive to have a Mission or Hostile in the area. Yes they are great and serve a "quick fix" service in the cold winter months BUT they also serve as a spot where the homeless can gather and therefore stick around. I propose the city buy the building, reno it or demo it and use the high valued property it sits on for something condusive to down town. The shelters and other program based centers could and should be located where there is a huge property (June Spring Rd anyone?) and a building be constructed there, one to house these people and other centers to assist in living skills and addiction treatment...I know this wont solve all of the homeless problems but at least it will be a start and further to that our down town will begin to be attractive to the families once again...
Now I know most of you reading this are thinking....not in my area. Well what I say to that is we live in one of the most beautiful provinces in Canada with a TON of open areas...there has to be a location where this could be done without offending many.



There is so much truth with what was stated.

Currently the system is failing, we are not stopping the cycle but only facilitating the needs of those who are abusing it. Yes, I said abusing it.

Many may not be aware that most of the “homeless” receive about $900.00 per month. You don’t need an address, just a bank account. I understand if you have your dog or dogs you receive pet allowance as well. In saying that, as long as you are somewhat sober and coherent they will feed you. If it becomes too cold to sleep in the park, they will give you a warm place to sleep.

Someone mentioned safe injection sites. That’s just great. Anyone have the numbers on how many addicts this program has turned out to have quite the habit? I’d like to know what the program costs the BC taxpayers, and how successful it is. As I do not know, I will not say it is a total waste of tax dollars.

In order to break the cycle of homelessness, the cycle has to be stopped. No different then the Welfare cycle. I do not have the answer although it doesn’t take too much to figure it out the current feed them, give them a place to crash and a monthly allowance to aid them in their dependency just isn’t working.

The person who said insufficient jobs, please stop.

There was a time when orchard owners tried to pick up workers at the lunch counters and these people were laughed at by those persons eating the free lunches. They do not want a job, and many are able more so than some of us who work daily because we do not want to sit on out butts and grow old.

Keep feeding them, and they will have no reason or need to work. Any one of us here, if someone handed you cash every month, just for showing up would you stop by and collect it?? I would too.
User avatar
CorkSoaker
Board Meister
Posts: 382
Joined: Dec 19th, 2010, 8:51 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by CorkSoaker »

Ken7 wrote:
There is so much truth with what was stated.

Currently the system is failing, we are not stopping the cycle but only facilitating the needs of those who are abusing it. Yes, I said abusing it.

Many may not be aware that most of the “homeless” receive about $900.00 per month. You don’t need an address, just a bank account. I understand if you have your dog or dogs you receive pet allowance as well. In saying that, as long as you are somewhat sober and coherent they will feed you. If it becomes too cold to sleep in the park, they will give you a warm place to sleep.


Unless that number has dramatically increased in the past 2 years it is actually around $670 a month in BC for a single employable. http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/welfare_incomes_2011.htm

Someone mentioned safe injection sites. That’s just great. Anyone have the numbers on how many addicts this program has turned out to have quite the habit? I’d like to know what the program costs the BC taxpayers, and how successful it is. As I do not know, I will not say it is a total waste of tax dollars.


Safe injection sites are part of the harm reduction strategy, as in reducing the harms associated with addiction. Since its opening the rate of HIV infections have dropped in Vancouver and not one person had died from an overdose under their watch. It also connects health care services with these folks, some of whom have not seen a doctor in many many years. There is also a facility called Onsite, which is a rehabilitation service. I can't find the study right now but I remember it stating that it is saving the taxpayers money.

Keep feeding them, and they will have no reason or need to work. Any one of us here, if someone handed you cash every month, just for showing up would you stop by and collect it?? I would too.


Omg, around $700 a month. That's a lot of money right there.
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

It is often said that truth is the first casualty of any war
tcha
Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Feb 21st, 2011, 12:56 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by tcha »

james-d wrote:Boy, there are some real IDIOTS responding to my posts on this subject

^^

james-d wrote:I am not a university graduate with degrees out my ying yang

Noone could possibly mistake you otherwise, could they?

james-d wrote:if they are on our streets I have a base ball bat and so does my wife if and if need be we know how to swing them

Cool... Does it make you feel more a man?

james-d wrote:... too many makin a good living as beggars...

So why don't you do it?
james-d
Banned
Posts: 667
Joined: May 3rd, 2010, 9:11 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by james-d »

Because, I have more respect for myself.
User avatar
Ken7
Guru
Posts: 8626
Joined: Sep 30th, 2007, 4:09 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by Ken7 »

[quote="CorkSoaker"]

Unless that number has dramatically increased in the past 2 years it is actually around $670 a month in BC for a single employable. http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/welfare_incomes_2011.htm

The number I used was from a homeless fellow. I could be high on the number, but he makes 50- 70 per day pulling cans. Do the math on one month. When you consider his social aid, no overhead at all other then the YMCA as he uses their washrooms. He just might be making more then the average household after their expenses.

Safe injection sites are part of the harm reduction strategy, as in reducing the harms associated with addiction. Since its opening the rate of HIV infections have dropped in Vancouver and not one person had died from an overdose under their watch. It also connects health care services with these folks, some of whom have not seen a doctor in many many years. There is also a facility called Onsite, which is a rehabilitation service. I can't find the study right now but I remember it stating that it is saving the taxpayers money.


Are these sites not trying to stop the cycle or just keep the virus from spreading? Possibly I missed their purpose. If so why have they not tried to work with these people to rehabilitate them?? To me it is much like a vehicle with a oil pan gasket gone. You could continue to just add oil, or replace that gasket. It is never ending!


Omg, around $700 a month. That's a lot of money right there.


Why bring GOD into this?

The $700.00 may not seem like much. Multiply that by the numbers of as you stated "EMPLOYABLE" persons in BC alone, what do you have for a number? Why are these employable not being employed? We bring people from other countries to work, but we pay ours to sit and be stoned or drunk? Further it is not going for food as I believe the original intent was. As I stated from the get-go we are only helping them to remain in the gutter strung out on alcohol or drugs. What is the government doing to stop the cycle?

It appears just giving people money is the answer but it is not fixing anything! As I also stated, if someone wanted to give the next 100 people $500.00 every month, would the be in line next month too?

It appears we as Canadians just like handing out money!!
User avatar
zzontar
Guru
Posts: 8868
Joined: Oct 12th, 2006, 9:38 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by zzontar »

Ken7 wrote: Why are these employable not being employed? We bring people from other countries to work, but we pay ours to sit and be stoned or drunk?


You're assuming there will always be someone to hire anyone who's unemployed but employable. Your example of bringing people in from other countries reminds me of when I tried to find work picking fruit but was told they only hired people with experience. I guess to say "pick with the stem and don't bruise the fruit" would have taken too long and warranted hiring people from afar. Sometimes there are more people than jobs, or people that only hire the experienced.
They say you can't believe everything they say.
sanfish
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3423
Joined: Mar 27th, 2006, 11:32 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by sanfish »

Ken7 wrote:
The $700.00 may not seem like much. Multiply that by the numbers of as you stated "EMPLOYABLE" persons in BC alone, what do you have for a number? Why are these employable not being employed? We bring people from other countries to work, but we pay ours to sit and be stoned or drunk? Further it is not going for food as I believe the original intent was. As I stated from the get-go we are only helping them to remain in the gutter strung out on alcohol or drugs. What is the government doing to stop the cycle?

It appears just giving people money is the answer but it is not fixing anything! As I also stated, if someone wanted to give the next 100 people $500.00 every month, would the be in line next month too?

It appears we as Canadians just like handing out money!!


Lets do a little Math. Feel free to pull out an abacus if you're having trouble keeping up ( or the math equivalent of cyalis). You speak of "employable" people without taking into consideration the lack of available jobs. I do agree with your points on all the jobs being made to foreign workers. We can go further even and put much if the blame on the outsourcing of jobs ( manufacturing out of country), the effects of "free trade" ( which is neither free nor does anything to encourage FAIR trade), the extraction of our wealth and natural resources , and the hiding of money off shore . However, I disagree with you putting the blame on the individual . People often speak of the sense of entitlement that those on welfare have, but it is the "elite" that deceive society and manipulate things for their benefit that have the biggest sense of entitlement . This isn't about someone working harder to "have more". It's more about them creating situations that benefit them to the cost of everyone else. There are far more people looking for a job than there are actual jobs ( not to mention the underpaid and underemployed). Simply stating that an individual is "employable " does nothing to address the shortage of work. The MATH dictates that if every "employable" Canadian were to "pull up yheir boot straps and apply themselves" that the inemployment/poverty rate would remain basically the same. Since the invention of the steam engine productivity has gone straight up while "work hours" have gone straight down to the point where one human can now produce enough "goods" for over 4000 other people ( worked out in "kila joules" of energy) . We have less people needed to work less hours to produce more things. Now we don't have "4000 times more" and we certainly aren't working "4000 times less" ( well not the people with jobs) . What's left is many more people out of work, and a small number of people with far more than they could ever use or deserve.

The system isn't broken. It was built this way. We sit around and argue about the crumbs while failing to see the forest for the trees. You speak of multiplying the "$700 by the number if employable people" like that would come out to some astronomical number. You should try multiplying $34,000 by the total number of Canadians ( their share of a National Debt common sense dictates we shouldn't have). Just the proposed increase to this supposedly peaceful country's military budget ( never mind the existing budget) could either cover Welfare or free education to any cAnadian wanting it. Lets compare that to the $14 Billion spent on "corporate welfare" ( who has that feeling of "self entitlement "again?). We spend $60 Billion in interest to service the debt we shouldn't have. We have "boondoggles", and "ad scams". We have corruption/collusion/manipulation at the highest levels costing hundreds of millions more annually. We have Banks that not only work very hard making Billions a fiscal quarter doing "nothing " ( read they create the money out if thin air rather than actually lending anything) except further devaluing the purchasing power of what little money we have left ( read inflation the "hidden tax") , but to top it all off they don't even pay income tax on those earnings . We spent over 20 Billion in Afghanistan to "help spread democracy" ( read ensure profits for Big oil with pipelines and the mining of rare earth metals) . Etc etc etc

Canada was supposed to be founded on the principle "Noblesse N'oblige" ( the more fortunate to care for the less fortunate). Rather than argue over the crumbs that our social welfare programs cost, perhaps we should instead feel shame that weve allowed the circumstances which put over 3 million Canadians ( 1 in 10) on Welfare ( not too mention all the working poor living under the poverty line). In this world of abundance it is unacceptable that we have those going without. We have people working in restaurants they can't afford to eat in, building houses they can never afford to buy, basically building up and supporting communities they can't afford to live in. We should be ashamed of ourselves
sanfish
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3423
Joined: Mar 27th, 2006, 11:32 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by sanfish »

james-d wrote:Because, I have more respect for myself.


Hmmm so then by your own words its not such a great life after all? I've never heard of someone "having to much respect for themselves to have a great paying job, or winning a lottery
sanfish
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3423
Joined: Mar 27th, 2006, 11:32 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by sanfish »

zzontar wrote:
You're assuming there will always be someone to hire anyone who's unemployed but employable. Your example of bringing people in from other countries reminds me of when I tried to find work picking fruit but was told they only hired people with experience. I guess to say "pick with the stem and don't bruise the fruit" would have taken too long and warranted hiring people from afar. Sometimes there are more people than jobs, or people that only hire the experienced.


Exactly! I would only correct the assumption that only "sometimes " there are more workers than jobs. Yes if course there are some regional discrepancies/shortages if workers, but taken as a whole, there are far more workers than their are jobs ( not to mention the underemployed and underpaid)
Prestige Mike
Board Meister
Posts: 373
Joined: Feb 12th, 2009, 9:56 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by Prestige Mike »

Anybody want to poke holes in my "give free drugs to addicts" idea?

I'm not sold on my own idea, so I'd like to hear peoples opinions on it.
sanfish
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3423
Joined: Mar 27th, 2006, 11:32 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by sanfish »

Prestige Mike wrote:Anybody want to poke holes in my "give free drugs to addicts" idea?

I'm not sold on my own idea, so I'd like to hear peoples opinions on it.


I'm not completely sold on it either , but it would arguably come at a far less cost to society( not just money ) than what's happening now
User avatar
Lady tehMa
A Peer of the Realm
Posts: 20304
Joined: Aug 2nd, 2005, 3:51 pm

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by Lady tehMa »

Prestige Mike wrote:
Perhaps giving junkies free drugs would be a good thing. There would be less theft, prostitution, extortion, etc if people didn't have to pay for their $200 a day addiction.

The government of Canada could buy opium and cocaine for pennies on the dollar.

The drugs could be dispensed in drug rehabilitation centers, where social workers and drug councilors would be on hand at all times for those on the fence about treatment.

Car insurance would go down if there were less break ins. Public health costs would go down if there were less overdoses and emergencies involving drug users.

Exploitation of women drug users would go down, as there would be less need to prostitute or rely on abusive men for their fix.

Gangsters would lose power/money as they lose many high paying customers for their drugs

Some times you need to think outside the box a little. Right now, the way we deal with drugs is not working. Perhaps we should trying something new


I could support this model, and the ideal location would be Ellesmere Island. You want free drugs? Fine - keep it in an isolated/dedicated community where no one will be harmed by their habits. They want out? No problem, they can volunteer to go to a second community just get completely clean and there you are, freedom (once you have been approved by mental health workers).
I haven't failed until I quit.
sanfish
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3423
Joined: Mar 27th, 2006, 11:32 am

Re: The push to end homelessness.

Post by sanfish »

Lady tehMa wrote:I could support this model, and the ideal location would be Ellesmere Island. You want free drugs? Fine - keep it in an isolated/dedicated community where no one will be harmed by their habits. They want out? No problem, they can volunteer to go to a second community just get completely clean and there you are, freedom (once you have been approved by mental health workers).


I would merely like to point out that the vast majority of the ills associated to drug use come directly from its prohibition( and the costs/profits derived from said prohibition), and that any remaining issues would be best dealt with using all the money used to police an unwinable "war on drugs"

Return to “Social Concerns”