Toxic Femininity

[Glacier]

Sex and gender roles have been formed over hundreds of thousands of years in human evolution, indeed, over hundreds of millions of years in our animal lineage. Aspects of those roles are in rapid flux, but ancient truths still exist. Historical appetites and desires persist. Straight men will look at beautiful women, especially if those women are a) young and hot and b) actively displaying. Display invites attention.

Hotness-amplifying femininity puts on a full display, advertising fertility and urgent sexuality. It invites male attention by, for instance, revealing flesh, or by painting on signals of sexual receptivity. This, I would argue, is inviting trouble. No, I did not just say that she was asking for it. I did, however, just say that she was displaying herself, and of course she was going to get looked at.

The amplification of hotness is not, in and of itself, toxic, although personally, I don’t respect it, and never have. Hotness fades, wisdom grows— wise young women will invest accordingly. Femininity becomes toxic when it cries foul, chastising men for responding to a provocative display.

https://quillette.com/2018/07/09/on-toxic-femininity/

[TylerM4]

I don't really agree.

Yes - I think that if you dress for attention you should expect to receive attention. BUT - I don't think most women who dress in a provocative way are opposed to getting attention. The problem is that the attention should be respectful regardless of how provocatively you may be dressed. Most women dressed in such a way won't be offended by a polite compliment. Cat-calling, uninvited touching, etc is not respectful. A women should be able to dress in any manor she chooses without being treated poorly for doing so.

Long story short: Most women dressed provocatively don't mind getting attention in the form of a polite compliment. It's not the attention that's a problem - it's the way some men express that attention that's the problem.

[Silverstarqueen]

First, all men ( most men) are not toxic. And pretty much anyone who is rational knows that. So there goes that theory.

Secondly, all women are not victims, but if they are assaulted, or treated very disrespectfully, required or pressured to perform sex against their will in order to keep their jobs, they certainly are victims.I think rational people would agree.
Just looking at a woman, is not against the law, and I haven't heard of any man being charged with that.

The men are going to have to stop using the excuse that the woman they assaulted was drop dead gorgeous, dressed too attractively, so they somehow aren't responsible for their assault.
If a guy is super attracted to a woman who obviously is trying to be attractive, why not just go through the regular channels of : establishing social contact, negotiating a more favorable type of interaction, and if that doesn't work, move on to another target?
There is no law (yet) against a woman dressing or behaving in an attractive manner, in fact many occupations for women require them to do that, secretaries, flight attendants, waitresses, actresses, models, TV news broadcasters,and many others.

There is a law against assaulting someone for sexual purposes. Trying to avoid the consequences of that law because the victim looked too attractive, is not going to wash.

[Jack DeBear]

“Toxic Femininity”

“All of which leads us directly to a topic not much discussed: toxic femininity.”

Heather Heying (http://heatherheying.com/)

Boo-ya!

A female Jordan Peterson counselling the women on, "antidotes to chaos."

From where Glacier left off:

<snip>

Where we set our boundaries is a question about which reasonable people might disagree, but two bright-lines are widely agreed upon: Every woman has the right not to be touched if she does not wish to be; and coercive quid pro quo, in which sexual favors are demanded for the possibility of career advancement, is unacceptable. But when women doll themselves up in clothes that highlight sexually-selected anatomy, and put on make-up that hints at impending orgasm, it is toxic—yes, toxic—to demand that men do not look, do not approach, do not query.

Young women have vast sexual power. Everyone who is being honest with themselves knows this: Women in their sexual prime who are anywhere near the beauty-norms for their culture have a kind of power that nobody else has. They are also all but certain to lack the wisdom to manage it. Toxic femininity is an abuse of that power, in which hotness is maximized, and victim status is then claimed when straight men don’t treat them as peers.

Creating hunger in men by actively inviting the male gaze, then demanding that men have no such hunger—that is toxic femininity. Subjugating men, emasculating them when they display strength—physical, intellectual, or other—that is toxic femininity. Insisting that men, simply by virtue of being men, are toxic, and then acting surprised as relationships between men and women become more strained—that is toxic femininity. It is a game, the benefits of which go to a few while the costs are shared by all of us.

<snip>

http://quillette.com/2018/07/09/on-toxic-femininity/

[Glacier]

Heather Heying is a far left evolutionary biology professor. Her Husband, Brett Weinstein, moderated the Jordan Peterson vs. Sam Harris debate in Vancouver a couple weeks ago. I agree that evolutionary biology is a very controversial science, which is why I posted this article. They investigate topics a reasonable person wouldn't dare look at.

[TylerM4]

Creating hunger in men by actively inviting the male gaze, then demanding that men have no such hunger—that is toxic femininity. Subjugating men, emasculating them when they display strength—physical, intellectual, or other—that is toxic femininity. Insisting that men, simply by virtue of being men, are toxic, and then acting surprised as relationships between men and women become more strained—that is toxic femininity. It is a game, the benefits of which go to a few while the costs are shared by all of us.

This part I certainly do agree with. To hang out a pair of nice boobs and get mad when men look at them isn't reasonable and is no doubt a toxic thought process.

[Glacier]

I think that most women don't realize how sexual they are. I mean, they want to get noticed and be beautiful, but they don't realize that make-up and lipstick and clothing are often designed to make you look fertile, which at the subconscious level, signals to men that you want to have sex with them. Obviously, it's a two way street here; men should never give into their animal instincts, but the fact of the matter is, many men behave like pigs.

It seems to me that it's a spectrum. If you dress up in such a way that you are displaying more sexuality than 90% of women out there, you are inviting trouble. No, you are not asking for it, but the toxic males will notice you far more than other women, and since they tend to be more aggressive than the nice men, you will likely end up dating and possibly even marrying a toxic male.

[TylerM4]

I think that most women don't realize how sexual they are. I mean, they want to get noticed and be beautiful, but they don't realize that make-up and lipstick and clothing are often designed to make you look fertile, which at the subconscious level, signals to men that you want to have sex with them. Obviously, it's a two way street here; men should never give into their animal instincts, but the fact of the matter is, many men behave like pigs.

Agreed except I wouldn't go so far as to say "most" women. I think "some" would be a better word there. When it comes to appearance, women are under a lot of pressure in our society. Leggings are "in style" at the moment, many wear leggings to be fashionable. The idea that leggings are thin material stretched tightly over the body which leaves little to the imagination and that men may see them as more than "just fashionable" may not be at the front of their mind when purchasing. It's very possible that some are dressing in such ways to impress their friend/coworkers rather than as an attempt to gather men's attention and are subsequently surprised/angered by the attention they get from men. Thus the complaint of "I don't wear this to get attention from men, I wore it to look nice/be fashionable" is voiced. It's unfortunate that most fashion trends cater to men in a sexual way. Wouldn't have this problem if sweatpants were in style.

[alanjh595]

I believe that all women choose to dress the way that they do, is based upon many aspects of human nature, whether it is intuitive, sociological, idiogicicaly, expressively, or psychologically. Many can be placed under any of those categories, and they may or may not understand the reasons as to why they do it themselves.
Men also show the same traits, but express them in different ways. Men's traits are much more easily recognized, as they ARE the simpler sex.
Women are much more complicated and when it comes to mate selection, they are the ones in control. They have the final say. Men on the other-hand have to prove themselves worthy, pass all the tests and get down on bended knee, offer a gift of cherished value, and beg for the woman's approval.
Women's manner of dressing will change over time. Just compare what she looked like at the bar when you first met her, to how she dresses 7 years after marriage.

[Silverstarqueen]

Most women dress more or less according to whatever they perceive their brand of fashion looks like. There are all types, some want to have an athletic flavor, some nature child, some business woman, some pop-star (choose your flavor there), many have no fashion sense, or are dressing according to whatever style was in vogue when they were much younger. This is a big past-time for many women and the make up is just part of the package.
Beauty (or attractiveness) is in the eye of the beholder. So if some guy thinks a woman is "his type" and sending special messages to him alone, that perception may (or may not) be all in his own little mind. A lot of guys will err on the side of "she really wants me", when the woman may not have that intention at all, she may just happen to be in the style of fashion that appeals to him.
I recall one very short conversation that I had with a young man one afternoon while I was waiting to pick up a family member from work. I was in my car and doing no more than passing the time of day, probably asked how his mother was doing sort of thing, trying to be sort of friendly since he was a friend of this family member. That was it from my point of view. However I learned later from someone else, that he apparently thought I was totally attracted to him and very into him, and "giving off signals". No. I mean, just no. My tastes in men would definitely not run toward his type. Most people find me mildly friendly but certainly not palsy-walsy unless they are family or know me very well. So this was all in his own little mind. I have no idea what I was wearing, but I dress pretty plainly and am not particularly fashionable, barely remember to put on makeup when I go out, run a quick brush thru my hair. So if guys are being overstimulated by that sort of thing, nothing is going to save women from this except perhaps going out in a burka or nun's outfit. And some guys would probably find that too much as well.

It's not our fault if some or even many males are wired this way. I could care less if guys have this problem as long as they keep it to themselves. If they can't figure out how to accurately read when I am really interested in them, that's too bad. They can just ask if they aren't sure. If I happen to be very interested in a man, he will know it. But I do not think women should have to dress badly or forgo their favorite hair do or make-up because there might be some guys out there who seem to read all these things as a green light that a woman is attracted to them.

And incidentally, I personally would not be attracted to a man that begged for my approval. although I am sure there must be some women out there who would be. I like a man who is comfortable with himself, does not perceive women as the enemy, and a sense of humor doesn't hurt either.

[alanjh595]

Most women dress more or less according to whatever they perceive their brand of fashion looks like.
Men dress to the environmental conditions that they will be working in.
There are all types, some want to have an athletic flavor, some nature child, some business woman, some pop-star (choose your flavor there), many have no fashion sense,
You are judging other women by the clothing they wear.
or are dressing according to whatever style was in vogue when they were much younger. This is a big past-time for many women and the make up is just part of the package.
This fits into the psychological category that women have created for themselves in comparison to other females.
Beauty (or attractiveness) is in the eye of the beholder. So if some guy thinks a woman is "his type" and sending special messages to him alone, that perception may (or may not) be all in his own little mind.
Demeaning the size of a male's brain does not help your case, in fact, it creates cause for doubt and your personal views of the male portion of humanity.
A lot of guys will err on the side of "she really wants me", when the woman may not have that intention at all, she may just happen to be in the style of fashion that appeals to him.
So what? Then the male likes the clothing that she chose to wear instead of what is inside the clothing, without even considering the brain that is not disguised with makeup.
I recall one very short conversation that I had with a young man one afternoon while I was waiting to pick up a family member from work. I was in my car and doing no more than passing the time of day, probably asked how his mother was doing sort of thing, trying to be sort of friendly since he was a friend of this family member. That was it from my point of view.
That is from YOUR point of view. What about the view that he had, plus the extra personal interest that you had shown him during that conversation? He may have just been mistaken about your intentions?
However I learned later from someone else, that he apparently thought I was totally attracted to him and very into him, and "giving off signals". No. I mean, just no. My tastes in men would definitely not run toward his type.
That is your choice, again...back to the female's choice of suiters.
Most people find me mildly friendly but certainly not palsy-walsy unless they are family or know me very well.
I find you very negative and someone that has probably been emotionally hurt by men. That's okay, I also have been hurt by women and have a very negative opinion about their morals.
So this was all in his own little mind. I have no idea what I was wearing, but I dress pretty plainly and am not particularly fashionable, barely remember to put on makeup when I go out, run a quick brush thru my hair. So if guys are being overstimulated by that sort of thing,
Perhaps you just exude pheromones that draw men in like flies to a pile of horse excrement? Hey, is just nature. Maybe you are extremely attractive no matter what you choose to wear? A natural beauty?
nothing is going to save women from this except perhaps going out in a burka or nun's outfit. And some guys would probably find that too much as well.
Men can tell alot from the eyes of a woman.

It's not our fault if some or even many males are wired this way. I could care less if guys have this problem as long as they keep it to themselves. If they can't figure out how to accurately read when I am really interested in them, that's too bad.
Whereas, females are most attracted by the fullness of the male wallet, get over it, those of us that are older and wiser and have years of experience are accustomed to the "hunting female" of the pride.
They can just ask if they aren't sure. If I happen to be very interested in a man, he will know it.
I take it from your post, that you are not interested in any future relationships due to your person, past experiences.
But I do not think women should have to dress badly or forgo their favorite hair do or make-up because there might be some guys out there who seem to read all these things as a green light that a woman is attracted to them.
Women do these things for themselves. It makes them feel better about themselves. It is not always about attracting a male, it makes them feel better about their perceived shortcomings.

And incidentally, I personally would not be attracted to a man that begged for my approval. although I am sure there must be some women out there who would be.
Every married woman that accepted a proposal from their husband as they accepted their diamond engagement ring.
I like a man who is comfortable with himself, does not perceive women as the enemy, and a sense of humor doesn't hurt either.
I have the sense of humour, but the rest, let's me off of your hook. good luck in your quest, I pity the poor soul.

[zoo]

Yes, toxic masculinity exists. But the use of the term has been weaponized.

The above is a statement pulled from the above article. And it sum's up the sickness that has been created throughout our societies. The quest for control, attention, power, wealth,,,who knows, but the statement nailed it.
Its been weaponized.

Since the beginning of time, the visual, appearance, sexually nature of women have been used for exactly the same things.
No one needs to debate it. Most men laugh ever time that society uses the weapon of visualization as there fault.

Every women knows very well exactly what they are doing. Its about being visual. Its about attention. Its about power, needs, etc. Get over it. Yes it is possible to portray oneself as an object, isnt it?
The bigger concern is the fact that with in our society every part of the visual attraction that women portray and that men admire is to be a fault of man. That it can be used to any extent and no ownership of using it, it is never be acknowledge or even talked about.
Society struggle's with some of the most stupid things.

[Jack DeBear]

Yeah, zoo, definitely serious business, and I agree with how you put it.

So maybe time for a little levity . . ..

Since Silverstarqueen got into reminiscing and prompted alanjh595 to come back with, “Men dress to the environmental conditions that they will be working in.”

I went to the concert for Toronto, Toronto Rocks, for SARs recovery back in 2003.

The weather was blazing hot, and some of the women were right down to topless, prompting Brian Johnson of AC/DC to comment from the stage, “Ah, the lovely ladies of Toronto.”

But this Isley Brothers performance pretty much summed the ‘work environment’ that was going on that day.

Hear me callin' out to you
'Cause that's all that I can do
Your eyes tell me to pursue
But you say, look yeah
But don't touch . . ..


I would dance upon a string
Any gifts she'd wanna bring
I would give her anything
If she would just do what I say . . ..

I would love to take her home
But her heart is made of stone . . ..

[Silverstarqueen]

Since the beginning of time, the visual, appearance, sexually nature of women have been used for exactly the same things.
No one needs to debate it. Most men laugh ever time that society uses the weapon of visualization as there fault.

Every women knows very well exactly what they are doing. Its about being visual. Its about attention. Its about power, needs, etc. Get over it. Yes it is possible to portray oneself as an object, isnt it?
The bigger concern is the fact that with in our society every part of the visual attraction that women portray and that men admire is to be a fault of man. That it can be used to any extent and no ownership of using it, it is never be acknowledge or even talked about.
Society struggle's with some of the most stupid things.

Women know what they are doing, their "ownership" is their right to dress or alter their appearance according to the widely accepted norms of this society. They don't wear swimsuits at work (unless they are modelling them, or happen to be a lifeguard). Characterizing women's appearance as a "weapon" is beyond ridiculous.
Women don't however "own" how the men perceive or react. Men strut their stuff (usually where appropriate) and women aren't going around complaining about how unfair the world is, that they just can't manage to get thru a day without assaulting or harrassing some guy because he's just too attractive. Women don't blame men just for looking attractive or trying to attract the opposite sex.
And men know what they are doing. They are about attention, power, needs, but that's okay, because they are men.
So men can own their behavior too, they are not quite as helpless as some seem to be suggesting. They can treat others with respect, even while seeking attention and power. They can take responsibility for their reactions, just like female grown ups do.
Why the double standard?

[Silverstarqueen]

Yeah, zoo, definitely serious business, and I agree with how you put it.

So maybe time for a little levity . . ..

Since Silverstarqueen got into reminiscing and prompted alanjh595 to come back with, “Men dress to the environmental conditions that they will be working in.”

I went to the concert for Toronto, Toronto Rocks, for SARs recovery back in 2003.

The weather was blazing hot, and some of the women were right down to topless, prompting Brian Johnson of AC/DC to comment from the stage, “Ah, the lovely ladies of Toronto.”

But this Isley Brothers performance pretty much summed the ‘work environment’ that was going on that day.

Were any of the men right down to topless? lol