"Unplanned" Movie

[Silverstarqueen]

Well I wasn't debating my butt, last time I checked it was not on fire.
You haven't said much about the movie lately, so difficult to comment on it.
It is a movie about abortion, and the discussion has been on various aspects of that for a few days now.
It's a bit difficult to talk about a movie about abortion without talking about abortion.
And other movies about abortion were also mentioned.

[Glacier]

Firstly, I publicly apologize to FF and others who read my harmful and crass posted yesterday. I thought I was being funny laying in bed with high fever yesterday, but that's no excuse -- it was not funny at all, just mean and hurtful comments toward the kind and compassionate flamingfingers.

Back on topic, the link between religion and abortion views is complicated. Religion is a good motivator for getting people to stand up for justice (real or perceived). This is how slavery was abolished.

Just as the Bible doesn't say much about slavery or abortion, the bible is often used to oppose both.

Don't get me wrong, I am not making a moral equivalent, only that religion is used for both, just as it was with prohibition (which history shows us was clearly is a mistake).

Religion is a tool that can be used for good or bad depending on how it is channelled.

From what I have seen, most of the arguments against abortion are not religious, but there is some correlation between being religious and being against abortion. Certainly the "unplanned" movie was definitely told from a religious perspective (I believe the lady became Catholic).

It is really interesting how the die hard abortion protesters are so often Catholic. I don't know enough about theological differences to tell you why this is, but it's probably related to how Catholic teaching seems to be against all forms of birth control including condoms. At least that's what I learned from Monty Python.

[Silverstarqueen]

The Catholic church has no problem with natural forms of family planning (such as the so called "rhythm method", which actually works not too badly if you know what you are doing. Also the Catholic church is not against the use of condoms in some situations.
Also do not confuse the Catholic church's position on these issues with that of Catholics themselves, since many are quite fine with using birth control, and like anyone else might prefer one method over another.
Also those providing abortions have found just about as many Catholics as you would expect (given the percent of the population) turning up to access abortion services. I don't know if they have ever polled whether "pro-lifers" were also turning up, but as mentioned before it's highly unlikely someone would admit to it if asked.
And the bible does specifically deal with an example of someone causing abortion,if against the parents wishes, and what should be the penalty, which is nothing like the penalty for murder. If it had some great prohibition against abortion that was with the woman's consent, anything like the level of murder, I'm pretty sure it would say so. In fact somewhere in the bible is a recipe for an abortificant, and discussed under which conditions it can be used (such as when a woman has extra-marital affair).
Nowhere does it claim that a fetus is equivalent to a born alive human being. But perhaps someone could correct me if I am wrong, with references to biblical quotes.
Just for clarification, since this has nothing to do with the movie.
And, there are many places in the bible where slavery is mentioned in the old and new testament, discussed in depth, no blanket condemnation of it.So saying the bible doesn't say much about it , is false.

[two_shoes1mit]

The Catholic church has no problem with natural forms of family planning (such as the so called "rhythm method", which actually works not too badly if you know what you are doing. Also the Catholic church is not against the use of condoms in some situations.
Also do not confuse the Catholic church's position on these issues with that of Catholics themselves, since many are quite fine with using birth control, and like anyone else might prefer one method over another.
Also those providing abortions have found just about as many Catholics as you would expect (given the percent of the population) turning up to access abortion services. I don't know if they have ever polled whether "pro-lifers" were also turning up, but as mentioned before it's highly unlikely someone would admit to it if asked.
And the bible does specifically deal with an example of someone causing abortion,if against the parents wishes, and what should be the penalty, which is nothing like the penalty for murder. If it had some great prohibition against abortion that was with the woman's consent, anything like the level of murder, I'm pretty sure it would say so. In fact somewhere in the bible is a recipe for an abortificant, and discussed under which conditions it can be used (such as when a woman has extra-marital affair).
Nowhere does it claim that a fetus is equivalent to a born alive human being. But perhaps someone could correct me if I am wrong, with references to biblical quotes.
Just for clarification, since this has nothing to do with the movie.
And, there are many places in the bible where slavery is mentioned in the old and new testament, discussed in depth, no blanket condemnation of it.So saying the bible doesn't say much about it , is false.

Could you please give specific reference in the Bible where is says many of the issues you are quoting?

[Silverstarqueen]

Exodus 21:22-24 "
King James 2000 Bible
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

[flamingfingers]

The Bible also seems to be not uncomfortable with the concept of infanticide:

Exodus 1:16
Verse Concepts
and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live."

Matthew 2:16
Verse Concepts
Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

Psalm 137:9
Verse Concepts
How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

Isaiah 13:18
Verse Concepts
And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.

It seems to me that the Bible (written by many men) have been bent and twisted to a remarkable degree to suit the ideological perceptions of many men again.

Perhaps more compassion and understanding could be directed to WOMEN who find themselves trapped by an unwanted pregnancy.

[Glacier]

If I recall correctly SilverStarQueen is a Catholic. It makes sense that she feels that abortion is mostly a religious question. She feels that she should be able to easily refute Catholics on the other side of the abortion to debate with theological arguments.

If we take the previous few posts at face value in then we can assume that the pro-choice arguments are stronger using the Bible. In terms of secular arguments, I would saying that the pro-life side has stronger arguments.

[Silverstarqueen]

If I recall correctly SilverStarQueen is a Catholic. It makes sense that she feels that abortion is mostly a religious question. She feels that she should be able to easily refute Catholics on the other side of the abortion to debate with theological arguments.

If we take the previous few posts at face value in then we can assume that the pro-choice arguments are stronger using the Bible. In terms of secular arguments, I would saying that the pro-life side has stronger arguments.

You don't recall correctly. AND I did not say that I felt abortion is mostly a religious question. I am not trying to refute either side of the abortion debate with theological arguments.
Perhaps you should stick with your own views, or even someone else's views, and stop trying to misrepresent mine.

[flamingfingers]

In terms of secular arguments, I would saying that the pro-life side has stronger arguments.

Only if you are prepared to exclude from the equation the WOMAN who has fallen pregnant with an unplanned, UNWANTED pregnancy.

[two_shoes1mit]

removed

[Sparki55]

https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/265140/Unborn-child-murdered

I don't have an opinion on the sentencing other than I am glad he will see lots of jail time.

This does spark my interest in what other people think of that a stabbing and ultimately a death of an unborn child from the stabbing has resulted in a second degree murder charge. Could this not create some unwanted fuel for supporters of the unplanned movie?

[flamingfingers]

Could this not create some unwanted fuel for supporters of the unplanned movie?

I'm not sure how. The woman obviously did not wish to have the child "aborted" as she carried the pregnancy to 36 weeks. She apparently wished to give birth to the baby and at 36 weeks the fetus was viable - he actually breathed and had a heartbeat after emergency C-section. Neonatal deaths do occur; however, this neonatal death was found to be due to the actions of the accused.

[Silverstarqueen]

https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/265140/Unborn-child-murdered

I don't have an opinion on the sentencing other than I am glad he will see lots of jail time.

This does spark my interest in what other people think of that a stabbing and ultimately a death of an unborn child from the stabbing has resulted in a second degree murder charge. Could this not create some unwanted fuel for supporters of the unplanned movie?

There was not a "death of an unborn child". The baby was born alive, and then died. Father was charged because he caused that death. Has nothing to do with abortion as it is normally carried out. The movie is about "Unplanned" (meaning I suppose unwanted) pregnancies, which this one was not.

[Laurane]

The movie which I don't plan to see, as I have a hard time watching people suffer when it involves children, even though it has an uplifting ending, is really about a woman's struggle with her notion that a fetus is the possession of the mother.

Therefore the mother (who many say is not a mother till the baby has been born) has the option to kill that inconvenience and we can't call it anything else, can we? Whatever prompts this pregnancy, starts a child......when a heart stops beating, you die. When it starts beating, you live.

Try telling a new mother who just heard she is pregnant with her first baby that she is is not a mother - she might not feel bonded yet, but she knows she carries another person inside her. Those who have been forced to become mothers involuntarily have my sympathy, but that child is still a potential genius for the world, a potential loving son to her, or a hoped-for daughter to another mother who can't naturally have her own through adoption. A hard time for that woman/girl no matter what she chooses, but there are two people involved once a heart starts beating and life is hard.

We all learn by horrible experiences and regret some things we did, and this is what the movie is about.

[Silverstarqueen]

Some people feel that the fetus is a person from day one, some later, some when viable, some when it takes it's first breath.

So no surprise that some people have picked "a detectible heartbeat" as the the critical point, which is around 6 to 8 weeks.
Other people would not feel that this is a baby. So no we cannot say "we can't call it anything else", because different people call it very differently. Nothing wrong with calling it a person, a future professor, (odds are it won;t be), or whatever they want it to be.

Now if heartbeat doesn't work for some then this is not a baby to those people:For me, I can definitely call it something else, but that makes no difference because I am not trying to tell anyone else what they should believe,is the contents of their uterus, in this case, the size of a lentil, but of course, completely of soft blobby tissue.
https://www.babycentre.co.uk/6-weeks-pregnant

8 1/2 weeks: https://www.parentune.com/parent-blog/8 ... egnant/961

Certainly, some people have horrible experiences, they lose a pregnancy, their little lentil does not have a heartbeat, they have a baby they aren't prepared for, or they might get an abortion they should not have, or they are forced to have a baby they don't want. So a person should make that decision carefully. The vast majority of women do not regret the decision and are thankful that they have a choice (still), at least up to a point. They can take a medication that will bring on their period just as it normally would occur (obviously late tho). It does not have to be a traumatic experience, there are nurses and counsellors to help them when they are sure of what choice they have made. Having a baby when someone is nowhere near prepared to raise it for the next 20 years can also be traumatic. That is why we give people a choice.