"Unplanned" Movie

[Merry]

It is extremely hard to have a rational dispassionate discussion about abortion.

Which is why finding a good compromise is so very difficult. Because for each side it's an "all or nothing" debate. Consequently it's a debate that will never end, no matter what kind of legislation is in place.

"My body, my choice" rings hollow because there is a body in your body, so it's not that simple.

That depends on what stage of the pregnancy the woman is in. For me to consider the fetus to be anything more than a bunch of cells, it would have to be viable outside of the woman's body. Anything that can't survive outside of it's host is not an entity in it's own right.

"If you don't want abortions, you should be advocating for vasectomies, etc." is a valid criticism. One should have their own house in order before criticizing the world (to quote an infamous Canadian clinical psychologist).

True

there's such a demand for unwanted children that people have to find them in China.

There are plenty of Canadian children available for adoption; the problem is that most folks want babies, not children. And children with disabilities are even more unwanted.

When abortion was illegal, and more babies and children were available, there were far more unadopted children in our system than there are today. So the evidence doesn't support the argument that if abortion was illegal, all those unwanted children would get adopted.

The only way to end abortion is to end unwanted pregnancy

Abortion is about more than just "unwanted pregnancy". For example, many anti abortion advocates disagree with making abortion available to victims of rape and incest. And some extremists even disagree with making it available to women whose lives might be at risk if they continue with the pregnancy.

Some, who use graphic images to discourage surgical abortions, are also against pharmaceutical ones, even though this method of abortion can be done in the very early stages when the fetus really is just a mass of cells. Yet it has been shown that making it difficult for women to obtain access to this medication, often leads to surgical abortions at a later stage of the pregnancy.

My point is that there are many shades of grey in the abortion debate, which fanatics on BOTH sides always try to reduce to a simple black and white argument.

[OKkayak]

You're thinking of a different country. Canada doesn't have any abortion laws. It's regulated by the medical community. We leave choice to a woman and her doctor as it should be. The only issue Canada has with abortion is providing adequate access in our vast country.

This discussion isn’t Canada specific. Regardless, at one point we did have laws and we may have laws again some day in the future.

That's the problem with the thumpers they feel your business IS their business. Everything is black & white until their daughter gets knocked up or wants to bat for the same team.

There are “thumpers” on both side of the debate.

[normaM]

Over 1,000 children awaiting adoption in BC alone. (2019 stats) For Canada I could only find from 2016 - over 300,000 according to the experts.

Lots of kids hoping for families

[Glacier]

There are plenty of Canadian children available for adoption; the problem is that most folks want babies, not children. And children with disabilities are even more unwanted.

When abortion was illegal, and more babies and children were available, there were far more unadopted children in our system than there are today. So the evidence doesn't support the argument that if abortion was illegal, all those unwanted children would get adopted.

So you're saying that making abortion illegal would reduce the number of abortions?

Anyway, when they're born, they are babies, so they should be easy to adopt out. There are few who adopt older kids and ones with horrible diseases and handicaps, that is for sure. Some people do it, but they are few and far between. Almost all of which are the result of drug addiction, FAS, and the like. Like Muslims, First Nations people don't really believe in abortion, and since most of these kids are First Nations, any changes in abortion laws would not have much impact.

BTW, it's become increasingly hard to adopt First Nations kids the government doesn't want to be seen promoting "cultural genocide" by putting them into the homes of white people.

[JLives]

Abortion is about more than just "unwanted pregnancy". For example, many anti abortion advocates disagree with making abortion available to victims of rape and incest. And some extremists even disagree with making it available to women whose lives might be at risk if they continue with the pregnancy.

Some, who use graphic images to discourage surgical abortions, are also against pharmaceutical ones, even though this method of abortion can be done in the very early stages when the fetus really is just a mass of cells. Yet it has been shown that making it difficult for women to obtain access to this medication, often leads to surgical abortions at a later stage of the pregnancy.

Indeed. And thank you for noting abortion is not always a medical procedure. You will find in Canada, late term abortions are only performed by a handful of doctors in the country and for situations of severe medical emergency where the fetus or mother are in a life threatening situation. It would be rare, if any situations even exist, where they are performed in the third trimester because the woman changes her mind of having a baby.

Another note on the adoption topic, we must also consider that women aren't to be used as brood mares for people unable to conceive. It always, always, always comes down to the right bodily autonomy and their choices.

[normaM]

Agreed.. I referenced the adoption numbers in case people thought there was a shortage of children looking for loving families.
Making abortions illegal certainly wouldn't stop women from having them.

[AlienSoldier]

I think it’s also important to state that some people will adopt kids for not so selfless reasons. These children become prime pickings for pedophiles, people with drug issues who want the cash or are used as people to do put to work.

I realize that this is a blemish on society but to fix and ensure these babies then have a good and stable upbringing we’d need to add a great deal of resources. Which ends up costing money from taxes that we all complain about. Then when they grow up and do drugs, steal because no ones ever treated them like humans so why should they act like one, we end up wanting to lock them up.

If anyone likes reading, checkout Freakanomics. It is a great book on states and explains how the reduction in crime in the states can be partially connected to abortion laws some 15 years earlier. Essentially mothers who were poor and got abortions helped reduce the number of kids being born who stole to provide for the families. This then lead to a drop in crime.

Last point. Someone mentioned Muslims and Aborginals not believing in abortion, this is true for many in all religions. There are Christians who have 15 kids (the Duggers come to mind). Hindu’s, Jews and others also come to mind.

[flamingfingers]

The study's authors concluded that "restricting access to abortions does not reduce the number of abortions."

Read the rest here:

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/induced ... d=56232222

[Ka-El]

The study's authors concluded that "restricting access to abortions does not reduce the number of abortions."

It also does not improve health outcomes or reduce health costs. This is the same line of thinking as making drugs illegal will reduce drug use (what a costly disaster that has been) or kicking people off welfare will help them find work, or cutting funding to the criminal justice system will reduce crime. Gee whiz, our right-wing moralists sure cost society a lot.

[Silverstarqueen]

Reading through the above discussion it sounds as though, for many, the subject of abortion is more of a power struggle between the sexes, than a discussion about the ethics of the procedure. And maybe that is the real problem.

The ethics? Of taking a medication to allow a blob of jelly to pass out with her period? This is how about 25% of embryos end, with a natural miscarriage. So how is it ethically different if the woman takes a medication to bring on her period?

[Silverstarqueen]

Women with unwanted pregnancy:
- pro choice
- support
- her right

Men with unwanted pregnancy:
- deadbeat dad
- wear a condom
- child support
- grow up
- thats life, it's unfair

What happened to equality?
Women and men need to consider contraception if they don't plan to have a child. I think 99% of the population accepts that (even most Catholics). Sometimes the woman's contraception fails, but if the male is also using a condom, the chance of a pregnacy is very small. Abortion is just a backup option when those methods have both failed.
Moms who don't care for a child are just as frowned upon (and are sometimes prosecuted), just as dads who don't take their responsibilities seriously (once the child is born).

[Silverstarqueen]

Men have unwanted pregnancies? only perhaps in your nightmares. Well tell us Sparki, what's it like to be pregnant when you are not in a position to raise a child?

Really? So if a man knocks up a girl and shes pro life, he's stuck paying for an unwanted pregnancy. If a girl decides she doesn't want baby and guy does, still her choice to make. Takes 2 to make a baby, one to decide if it lives.

Keep sticking to your extreme feminism! I'm glad women are treated more fair now and access to proper treatment if required is available but quit pretending that there aren't two people involved.

I'm not "pro life" or "pro choice", just think men should have some of their own options. If a man 100% doesn't want a child, what gives the mother the right to have it and bill the dad for xhild expenses?

There's no harm in a guy checking with a woman before he has sex to see if she's pro-life. Then he won't be stuck paying for an unwanted pregnancy (of course presuming he is using a condom, also wouldn't hurt). Wouldn't he also check and ask her if she is on some form of reliable contraception (even if not perfect, it does greatly reduce chance of pregnancy).
I'm not sure what is so "extreme" about my position: If a woman is using contraception and it fails, (or has been raped) she should (and does)have the option of terminating the pregnancy). Do you really think that is extreme? I have never "pretended" that there are not two people required to start a pregnancy. I've had three children,and I also became pregnant as a result of rape, so I know quite well where babies come from.
If the man 100% doesn't want a child he can a) use a condom b) ensure his partner is also using contraceptions c) find out if she is pro-life or not and choose partners accordingly. This would leave a very unlikely chance of his having a child that he did not want.

[GordonH]

If a man doesn't want children a vasectomy does the job (no swimmers no pregnancy).

[Merry]

Reading through the above discussion it sounds as though, for many, the subject of abortion is more of a power struggle between the sexes, than a discussion about the ethics of the procedure. And maybe that is the real problem.

The ethics? Of taking a medication to allow a blob of jelly to pass out with her period? This is how about 25% of embryos end, with a natural miscarriage. So how is it ethically different if the woman takes a medication to bring on her period?

I think you must have misunderstood my position; I'm in favour of pharmaceutically induced abortions.

My comment was about how the comments made immediately prior to that post seemed to be more about a power struggle between the sexes, than about the pros and cons of abortion.

[miss_sterious]

Margaret Sanger made many racist comments, which are easy to find in her writings. She was a eugenist, who believed in a master race. She also believed that children of slaves should not be born, as they could never adapt to free society.


https://www.google.ca/amp/www.courierhe ... ger/%3famp