Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Ka-El
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

Post by Ka-El »

Omnitheo wrote: Honestly the people who complain the most about welfare never have the slightest clue what they are talking about, and the assumptions they make about people on it just further shows their ignorance.
Very few people would actually choose to live on $600 a month, and those who remain chronic welfare recipients normally have multiple barriers to employment. Twenty years ago, while working as a non-government contractor we were delivering life skills and work preparation programs to people who were chronically unemployed due to homelessness, mental health and addiction issue and lack of education with the goal of moving them from welfare dependence to independence.

We followed the progress of these participants from program completion to up to five years afterward (until the program was defunded by a government with that “conservative mindset” you’ve referenced) and found that when given the opportunity and support the majority (over 70%) were still working and contributing to society, paying tax instead of drawing on social funding. This, of course, did not include other harder to measure markers such as reduction in crime or public health costs.

For five years we put 80 people through a life skills and employment preparation training program, eight overlapping eight-week groups with ten in each group. Our average success rate (measured by moving a person off dependence) was 80% at program completion and, as stated, around 70% after five, four, three and two years. We had a program delivery cost of around $120,000, but our efforts saved taxpayers $340,800 that first year (80X600X12X.8-120,000), $744,000 (80X600X12X.7+340800) the second year, $1,084,800 the third year, $1,425,600 the fourth year – and again, these numbers don’t account for possible decreases in crime, public health costs or increased tax revenue.

When we brought in a government that presumed there was massive abuse and all these people needed was to be kicked off of welfare to be “motivated” to find work, not only was it found to be completely unproductive as a strategy to motivate marginalized people to find work, it was also confirmed that the number of people abusing the system was somewhere around 0.05%. This is logically consistent with the idea very few people would actually choose to live at that income level.
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cyruslosco66
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

Post by cyruslosco66 »

TylerM4 wrote:
Well 3 reasons really:
1) That's transitioning straight from direct costs to taxpayers to indirect costs. Much harder to manage something like that.
2) We already do this. Taxes on cigs, cannabis, and alcohol are extraordinarily high, much of the reason is to offset the cost of healthcare. I'd support the same for unhealthy foods assuming it's applied in a reasonable manner. Unfortunately, you can't tax lazyness.
3) The idea that alcoholics, obese people, or smokers cost taxpayers more money is a common fallacy. They don't in the long term. Did you know that 90% of healthcare dollars spent on you will be spent during the last 10 years of your life? These people die sooner saving taxpayers the cost of caring for them when they are elderly.

Sorry, I know you thought you were throwing down a trump card there.
asking ppl questions is how ppl learn from one another . it has nothing to do with trump cards .

my point was its a bad road to go down . if we got back to helping out fellow citizens instead of building walls this would be a better life for everyone
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whatwhat
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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JayByrd wrote:What does someone who's collecting Disability, say, due to crippling PTSD look like? Is there a way to tell them apart from slackers who just don't want to work and have a doctor's note?

Maybe this isn't as cut-and-dried as some of us think.
Some people are so blind to invisible disabilities, its disappointing in this day and age.

I don't know how many people I have worked with who have had a significant and sudden decline in their mental health by working a part time "menial" part time job. Just because something would be easy for you or I, doesn't mean that it is easy for someone with a mental health illness, or a physical injury.
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Sparki55
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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lifegives wrote:
cheating.png
* tax evasion data: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/ ... -1.2960595
You think people who don't pay their fair share of taxes cost taxpayers more than people who are literally paid by taxpayers [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif]
lesliepaul
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

Post by lesliepaul »

I have a huge problem with one segment of Canada's population that gets fed BILLIONS every year, month, day, hour, minute, second and never have to be accountable for squandering it...........START THERE!

...........and yet you have a problem with people with disabilities.........REALLY?
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Omnitheo
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

Post by Omnitheo »

Sparki55 wrote:
lifegives wrote:
cheating.png
* tax evasion data: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/ ... -1.2960595
You think people who don't pay their fair share of taxes cost taxpayers more than people who are literally paid by taxpayers [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif] [icon_lol2.gif]
Yes. 100% of money to welfare recipients goes back into the economy. Meanwhile the 1% profit off of the country and then hide much of that away overseas.
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Ka-El
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Omnitheo wrote: 100% of money to welfare recipients goes back into the economy.
This is true, and one of the stronger arguments for having a UBI. We know that when the disposable income of low- and middle-class people increases so does their spending – and consumer spending is a primary driver of the economy. The uber wealthy tend to invest and protect any additional monies and this does not necessarily result in immediate new jobs or new spending. Collectively we are all far better off to have more people receiving a living wage (this also puts those people in a much better position to improve their position) and investments in welfare, when adequate and directed, have provided us with positive returns moving more people from positions of dependence to positions of participation and contribution.
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Omnitheo wrote:100% of money to welfare recipients goes back into the economy.
This is not entirely accurate today:
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/gove ... mits-table
That's not a lot of money for people on welfare to invest, but for a PWD who makes the maximum contribution (thereby receiving the additional grants from the government), the RDSP amount really adds up. To clarify, I do not object to people on welfare or PWD having savings. The frugal among them can do quite well in hedging themselves against hard times, and that's a good thing IMO - much better than the days when they were discouraged from earning anything, and encouraged to spend everything immediately - just pointing out it's inaccurate to assume all recipients of welfare (or disability assistance) are putting all the money the government gives them back into the economy.
Omnitheo wrote: Meanwhile the 1% profit off of the country and then hide much of that away overseas.

Presuming the wealthy invest most of their money overseas may be inaccurate as well. It's likely they spend much of it in Canada, perhaps investing in jobs for the rest of us.

I don't think it's sensible for us to speak in absolutes. Many of us know people who do abuse the system, many of us also know people who do their best to be productive regardless of their disabilities. It is frustrating to us to see those who abuse the system causing problems for those who are doing their best, and it's perhaps even more frustrating when we see people with the best of intentions suggesting the government isn't doing enough when we know people who are doing very well with the existing supports - simply because they are more willing to take some personal responsibility for their own situations and futures than those who claim they can't manage with the existing supports. We don't want to see these existing supports jeopardized by system overload - our greatest concern is that over-expansion of programs will result in worse outcomes.
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Ka-El wrote:
Omnitheo wrote: 100% of money to welfare recipients goes back into the economy.
This is true, and one of the stronger arguments for having a UBI. We know that when the disposable income of low- and middle-class people increases so does their spending – and consumer spending is a primary driver of the economy. The uber wealthy tend to invest and protect any additional monies and this does not necessarily result in immediate new jobs or new spending. Collectively we are all far better off to have more people receiving a living wage (this also puts those people in a much better position to improve their position) and investments in welfare, when adequate and directed, have provided us with positive returns moving more people from positions of dependence to positions of participation and contribution.
And there is no way that someone living on 1200/mo-ish can participate in the economy. All money would be going to hand to mouth survival.
Is it true that there are no case workers that assist pwd or soc assistance people navigating programs anymore? Or are people assigned a caseworker? I'm wondering because a lot of people wouldn't have the money for the $2000 tech set up for computers, printers, stable housing to plug that setup in the wall. Who helps them navigate the 'system' if anyone ?
edit...nevermind found out there are no case workers.
Last edited by oldtrucker on Dec 4th, 2020, 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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oldtrucker
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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Ka-El wrote:Very few people would actually choose to live on $600 a month,
$600 mo? I thought it was more than that. A bedroom is 600+ to rent.
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rustled
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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oldtrucker wrote:
Ka-El wrote:This is true, and one of the stronger arguments for having a UBI. We know that when the disposable income of low- and middle-class people increases so does their spending – and consumer spending is a primary driver of the economy. The uber wealthy tend to invest and protect any additional monies and this does not necessarily result in immediate new jobs or new spending. Collectively we are all far better off to have more people receiving a living wage (this also puts those people in a much better position to improve their position) and investments in welfare, when adequate and directed, have provided us with positive returns moving more people from positions of dependence to positions of participation and contribution.
And there is no way that someone living on 1200/mo-ish can participate in the economy. All money would be going to hand to mouth survival.
This is simply not true, though - I know from family experience. While I would never say there's no room for improvement, with a reasonable amount of personal responsibility it is entirely possible to do better than merely subsist with the current system.
oldtrucker wrote:Is it true that there are no case workers that assist pwd or soc assistance people navigating programs anymore? Or are people assigned a caseworker? I'm wondering because a lot of people wouldn't have the money for the $2000 tech set up for computers, printers, stable housing to plug that setup in the wall. Who helps them navigate the 'system' if anyone ?
If you mean at the ministry office, there was a time when people in the system had specific caseworkers, but today they see whoever is available. There are pros and cons to this - you don't have to wait for your worker to be available, but you end up explaining your situation to another worker.

Speaking from our experience, there are other support workers and caseworkers involved for PWD, some of whom are assigned individually. The toughest part of the process - in our experience with PWD - was the designation itself. With the designation, very good community supports funded by the government became available immediately.

When a PWD (cognitive impairment) can become a productive contributing member of society within the existing system, it's difficult for me to believe it's less possible for those without disabilities to do the same.
Last edited by rustled on Dec 4th, 2020, 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GordonH
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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BC disability payments are shamefully low, impo no one can be independent on the amount given. Many with disabilities are just unable to work, don’t get me wrong many can and do a great job.
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

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GordonH wrote:BC disability payments are shamefully low, impo no one can be independent on the amount given. Many with disabilities are just unable to work, don’t get me wrong many can and do a great job.
My sibling (I call her Jane here) was able to live quite decently on the amount given - bear in mind that the income amount is not the only amount the governments provide. Eventually, Jane found appropriate work with an understanding employer and is remarkably independent. While I agree not every disabled person can do what Jane does, she was doing alright without the employment. She prefers to be employed and contribute, and over the past decade or so the BC government has removed the impediments to that.
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GordonH
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Re: Disability and welfare is the downfall of Canada.

Post by GordonH »

GordonH wrote: BC disability payments are shamefully low, impo no one can be independent on the amount given. Many with disabilities are just unable to work, don’t get me wrong many can and do a great job.
rustled wrote: My sibling (I call her Jane here) was able to live quite decently on the amount given - bear in mind that the income amount is not the only amount the governments provide. Eventually, Jane found appropriate work with an understanding employer and is remarkably independent. While I agree not every disabled person can do what Jane does, she was doing alright without the employment. She prefers to be employed and contribute, and over the past decade or so the BC government has removed the impediments to that.
BC disability for single person is still under $1,200 a month, rent in Kelowna for 1 bedroom is more then that.
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