Modern-day guilt shaming

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common_sense_guy
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Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by common_sense_guy »

This picture reminded me of what feels like is going on today and it is completely unjustified pointless and wrong
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Sparki55
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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*like*
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Bsuds
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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:up: :up:

Exactly.
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spooker
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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In what way do you mean "going on today"? I don't think I've heard of anyone saying that the Japanese owe the Americans an apology and needless to say that could then be extended to the Americans owing the Japanese an apology for internment camps ... is there another situation you're referring to?

I've heard people complain that "they want us to feel guilty for [insert something]" but that's just playing the victim (unless you're Catholic and then you're a master at feeling guilty since it's the default state-of-being) ... no one can "make" you feel anything if you don't want to ...
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Ka-El
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Ka-El »

Always a bit more to the story …
In 2014, the overall rate of violent victimization among Indigenous people was more than double that of non-Indigenous people (163 incidents per 1,000 people versus 74 incidents per 1,000 people). There are many reasons for these higher rates including past and ongoing experiences of colonialism, racism, and intergenerational trauma

The overrepresentation of Indigenous peoples in the correctional system in BC is increasing in all categories: male, female, adult and youth. Rates among Indigenous girls have increased the most - in 2006/2007 they accounted for 32% of female youth in custody in BC. In 2016/2017, they made up 60% of female youth in custody. (Indigenous peoples make up 5% of BC’s overall population.)

In BC, there are approximately 200,000 Indigenous peoples, including First Nations, Inuit and Métis. Many Indigenous peoples in BC have experienced trauma related to institutional, systemic, and targeted policies such as residential schools and child removal through the Sixties Scoop and ongoing high rates of victimization (e.g., missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls). This has resulted in intergenerational trauma in which the effects of past and ongoing colonial practices are transmitted through generations and continues to affect many Indigenous peoples today.
Many passed the abuse suffered on to their children, thereby perpetuating the cycle of abuse and dysfunctional [sic] arising from the Residential School System. Subsequent generations of children were left with the consequences of what happened to their parents and grandparents. They grew up without the opportunity to learn their language, to have traditions and cultural knowledge passed down to them, or to be a part of a strong and healthy family and community” (Aboriginal Healing Foundation, 2001, www.ahf.ca)

Existing (today) impacts of intergenerational trauma on the:

Individual

• Isolation/alienation
• Shame
• Anger toward school and parents
• Self-hatred
• Racism
• Fear of authority
• Low self-esteem
• Self-destructive behaviours (substance use, gambling, alcoholism, suicidal behaviours)
• Acting aggressively

Family

• Unresolved grief
• Difficulty with parenting effectively
• Domestic violence
• Loss of stories
• Loss of traditions
• Loss of identity

Community and culture

• Loss of connectedness with languages, traditions and cultural history
• Loss of togetherness and collective support
• Loss of support from Elders
• Lack of control over land and resources
• Increased suicide rate
• Lack of communal raising of children
• Lack of initiative
• Dependency on others
• Communal violence
Reconciliation is about establishing and maintaining a mutually respectful relationship.... for that to happen, there has to be awareness of the past, acknowledgement of the harm that has been inflicted, atonement for the causes, and action to change behaviour.” (Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, 2015)
I think most of us want to have reconciliation with our First Nations people. I think most Canadians see themselves as people who value our diverse culture and would really like to be able to just get along with each other. Reconciliation; however, is going to require an acknowledgement of the truth. We can acknowledge the truth of our history so we can learn to do better.
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Jlabute
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Jlabute »

It is wrong in many ways.
The child has no actual guilt, nor does the race.

Lots of people have chronic mental issues because of false guilt and those who try to push this idea on others have no moral authority to do so and make the world a worse place to live. Forgiving and helping is far superior to hating and blaming. Too many people forget they are just human.

To those who look for an apology, no apology on earth will ever help you. You need to forgive others to free them and yourselves.
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rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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Jlabute wrote: Jul 8th, 2021, 2:37 pm It is wrong in many ways.
The child has no actual guilt, nor does the race.

Lots of people have chronic mental issues because of false guilt and those who try to push this idea on others have no moral authority to do so and make the world a worse place to live. Forgiving and helping is far superior to hating and blaming. Too many people forget they are just human.

To those who look for an apology, no apology on earth will ever help you. You need to forgive others to free them and yourselves.
I agree. Regardless of who is weaponizing morality and for what purpose, weaponized morality always seems to end up making the world a worse place to live.

What's happening right now isn't healthy. The better objectives of truth and reconciliation have been perverted into insisting people atone for something they didn't do, suppressing parts of the truth in order to preserve negative stereotypes, accepting reliance on prejudice, and promoting bigotry. No real good can ever come of it, just more hurt and more anger and more pain.
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Glacier
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Glacier »

Similar to the church burnings (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... laze-only/) only the Innocent get hurt when you apply collective guilt.
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the truth
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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common_sense_guy wrote: Jul 8th, 2021, 1:30 pm This picture reminded me of what feels like is going on today and it is completely unjustified pointless and wrong
most truthful post of the year :smt045
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the truth
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by the truth »

Glacier wrote: Jul 9th, 2021, 10:54 pm Similar to the church burnings (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... laze-only/) only the Innocent get hurt when you apply collective guilt.
tell her that ..........
notice how the talk on her if off limits ,https://www.rebelnews.com/ezra_levant_s ... e=therebel
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common_sense_guy
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by common_sense_guy »

"It's not just a native problem, it's not just an Indian problem. It's Canada's problem now.”
Those are the words spoken by Chief Louis of the Osoyoos band.
This Is The Narrative I do not agree with. Where is the problem now? Why do they continue to want to push a guilt narrative that 99.9% of the population had nothing to do with or would have approved of in today's time.
Words like that in a situation like this is only going to cause more division between the people. If you want people to care about your plight, stop talking like that and telling everybody they should be remorseful or feel guilt. If you're going to paint me with the same brush as the people who performed atrocities or abuse and insist I do the time for the crime that I didn't do, I may feel more willing to do the crime if you're forcing me to do the time. The sympathy I have for the situation will dry up very quickly if you continue to push that narrative. I suggest tread lightly and don't offend innocent people.
And what with all the talk about reconciliation. What is it you would like? Apologies from innocent people who had nothing to do with it, apologies from politicians who had nothing to do with it? Or is it just a big payday you are ultimately after? It sure appears that is all it's shaping up to be. It takes two sides of a story to have a fight and pushing an inaccurate obsolete narrative is not going to win you any of those fights but only get you into more
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common_sense_guy
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by common_sense_guy »

spooker wrote: Jul 8th, 2021, 2:31 pm In what way do you mean "going on today"? I don't think I've heard of anyone saying that the Japanese owe the Americans an apology and needless to say that could then be extended to the Americans owing the Japanese an apology for internment camps ... is there another situation you're referring to?

I've heard people complain that "they want us to feel guilty for [insert something]" but that's just playing the victim (unless you're Catholic and then you're a master at feeling guilty since it's the default state-of-being) ... no one can "make" you feel anything if you don't want to ...
You completely missed the point. Read other people's comments and you may catch it.
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rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

common_sense_guy wrote: Jul 10th, 2021, 9:20 am "It's not just a native problem, it's not just an Indian problem. It's Canada's problem now.”
Those are the words spoken by Chief Louis of the Osoyoos band.
This Is The Narrative I do not agree with. Where is the problem now? Why do they continue to want to push a guilt narrative that 99.9% of the population had nothing to do with or would have approved of in today's time.
Words like that in a situation like this is only going to cause more division between the people. If you want people to care about your plight, stop talking like that and telling everybody they should be remorseful or feel guilt. If you're going to paint me with the same brush as the people who performed atrocities or abuse and insist I do the time for the crime that I didn't do, I may feel more willing to do the crime if you're forcing me to do the time. The sympathy I have for the situation will dry up very quickly if you continue to push that narrative. I suggest tread lightly and don't offend innocent people.
And what with all the talk about reconciliation. What is it you would like? Apologies from innocent people who had nothing to do with it, apologies from politicians who had nothing to do with it? Or is it just a big payday you are ultimately after? It sure appears that is all it's shaping up to be. It takes two sides of a story to have a fight and pushing an inaccurate obsolete narrative is not going to win you any of those fights but only get you into more
I agree with you about the guilt-shaming, the consequences and the pointlessness of apologies for the actions of others - particularly in response to inaccurate narratives.

It seemed to me the problem Chief Louis was talking about is the ongoing burden of not knowing what happened to some of the children who didn't return, of there being no interest in investigating, and of the nation's seeming indifference.

To me, this must surely feel very similar to those directly affected as the indifference shown by the general public when women they cared about were disappearing at the Lower Mainland: if those women had sold houses for a living, there is no way the general public would have been so indifferent for so long. We would have seen it as a problem immediately, and expected the agencies responsible for investigating the disappearance of those women to work together - to take action. It took the horror of a pig farm to shake people into seeing how our public agencies failed.

This is not in any way to suggest these gravesites hold the same horrors - no rational person would suggest every child or even most of the children in those graves were tortured and murdered. The point is how we haven't collectively agreed there is a reason to find out whether or not ANY of the graves in these graveyards hold the remains of children who were murdered, and we haven't collectively agreed there IS a reason to find out what happened to children who disappeared. In that respect, we have failed to behave as a just society would.

No just society should be able to ignore our collective part in the burden of the not knowing, the burden of it not mattering enough, the burden of rumours in place of honest effort to investigate.

Chief Louis was calling for investigation, and it's up to us to decide whether or not to support this investigation - that is our problem now.

What actions should be taken once the public supports an investigation (and it seems to me we do) will be largely up to the First Nations to decide. Louis believes an investigation would find some of the children who died at residential schools were murdered - and I expect he is realist enough to know that even the most thorough investigation possible may not determine this. However, if people are still alive who committed serious abuses against children, there is no reason not to hold them accountable, along with those who enabled them. The problem many of us see with the current narrative is how it expects us to ignore some of the truth and presents premature conclusions about the outcome of the investigation.

***The TL/DR version:
Chief Louis' call to work together - to see it as our problem to solve together - didn't seem to me to be guilt-shaming some people for what others did, although he may indeed have been calling our attention to how the lack of interest from those of us not directly affected has left too many difficult questions and too many rumours burning for far too long. And while yes, I think we do share some responsibility for that, I don't think guilt-shaming was his objective.
Staredintoabyss
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Staredintoabyss »

https://tnc.news/2021/07/07/six-things- ... l-schools/

I am skeptical of the source but the points are sound.
liisgo
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by liisgo »

Fantastic forum here. Its at least good to see so many actually can see how catastrophic to our society and country, this new Canadian "guilt shaming" thing is and will be.
Its disgusting. It shows the hypocritical value's with in those very same people claiming victim. So, really, victims of the past have not learnt any thing.
Can it be stopped? Guess that comes down to the people demanding it too. Freedom of speech to challenge it at every step.
Its a powerful tool, mostly that the left's use, its a weapon while being defensive at the same time.
Time for everyone to call it out for what it is.

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