Modern-day guilt shaming

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Staredintoabyss
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Staredintoabyss »

liisgo wrote: Jul 14th, 2021, 9:44 am Fantastic forum here. Its at least good to see so many actually can see how catastrophic to our society and country, this new Canadian "guilt shaming" thing is and will be.
Its disgusting. It shows the hypocritical value's with in those very same people claiming victim. So, really, victims of the past have not learnt any thing.
Can it be stopped? Guess that comes down to the people demanding it too. Freedom of speech to challenge it at every step.
Its a powerful tool, mostly that the left's use, its a weapon while being defensive at the same time.
Time for everyone to call it out for what it is.

Weak people seek the illusion of strength by trying to lessen others rather than improve themselves
rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

Staredintoabyss wrote: Jul 14th, 2021, 12:49 am https://tnc.news/2021/07/07/six-things- ... l-schools/

I am skeptical of the source but the points are sound.
^^Like.
Interesting to see CBC's less inflammatory version in the mix.
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ReadyToGo
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by ReadyToGo »

common_sense_guy wrote: Jul 10th, 2021, 9:20 am "It's not just a native problem, it's not just an Indian problem. It's Canada's problem now.”
Those are the words spoken by Chief Louis of the Osoyoos band.
This Is The Narrative I do not agree with. Where is the problem now? Why do they continue to want to push a guilt narrative that 99.9% of the population had nothing to do with or would have approved of in today's time.
Words like that in a situation like this is only going to cause more division between the people. If you want people to care about your plight, stop talking like that and telling everybody they should be remorseful or feel guilt. If you're going to paint me with the same brush as the people who performed atrocities or abuse and insist I do the time for the crime that I didn't do, I may feel more willing to do the crime if you're forcing me to do the time. The sympathy I have for the situation will dry up very quickly if you continue to push that narrative. I suggest tread lightly and don't offend innocent people.
And what with all the talk about reconciliation. What is it you would like? Apologies from innocent people who had nothing to do with it, apologies from politicians who had nothing to do with it? Or is it just a big payday you are ultimately after? It sure appears that is all it's shaping up to be. It takes two sides of a story to have a fight and pushing an inaccurate obsolete narrative is not going to win you any of those fights but only get you into more
Personally I'm tired of being blamed and paying.
Both sides of my family came here from other countries not to hurt anyone but to build on a dream. Live a good life but we fell into a blame game as if we were here when bad things happened.
I hope one day we become one and everyone learns to share and get along. Not to forget what happened but to grow and help each other. I know it won't happen but wouldn't it be nice.
Love Chief Louis, he has it together....
Remember that great love and great achievements involve great risk.
jigsalot
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by jigsalot »

How are we...now...July 2021...still debating the cruelty of residential schools? Government records show that indigenous children were forcibly removed from their family homes in order to assimilate them into the White European Culture. It was the law...indigenous children were forced into residential schools. Again...it was the law. It's past time that we accept the truth about our shared heritage.
jigsalot
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by jigsalot »

Jlabute wrote: Jul 8th, 2021, 2:37 pm It is wrong in many ways.
The child has no actual guilt, nor does the race.

Lots of people have chronic mental issues because of false guilt and those who try to push this idea on others have no moral authority to do so and make the world a worse place to live. Forgiving and helping is far superior to hating and blaming. Too many people forget they are just human.

To those who look for an apology, no apology on earth will ever help you. You need to forgive others to free them and yourselves.
I don't believe our First Nations families are looking for apologies. They want acknowledgment of the way they were treated by an occupying, colonizing nation. They want to be acknowledged NOW because they were never recognized as citizens in their own country. If we don't recognize their history in their country before it became the Great White North, we are blind to our history.
rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

jigsalot wrote: Jul 29th, 2021, 10:43 pm How are we...now...July 2021...still debating the cruelty of residential schools? Government records show that indigenous children were forcibly removed from their family homes in order to assimilate them into the White European Culture. It was the law...indigenous children were forced into residential schools. Again...it was the law. It's past time that we accept the truth about our shared heritage.
The truth about our shared heritage is convoluted. Government records show that some First Nations children were forced into residential schools, and that some were not. Just as some children were subjected to terrible cruelty, and some were not. Some staff at residential schools were cruel, some were not.

The reason it's being "debated" at this time is because while a very few people are denying the terrible cruelty, a great many today want us to believe that all children were forced, all children were subjected to terrible cruelty, all staff were cruel. Neither of these absolute positions is true.

Truth and reconciliation are the objectives - there's no genuine reconciliation without the truth. Too much of what's in the media is not the truth - it is a skewed version that takes the terrible experiences of some and insists that was the "norm" for all.

The adults who have wanted to share their own positive experiences at the residential schools they attended have found themselves guilt-shamed into silence. Those who point out not all children were forced, not all staff were cruel, are guilt-shamed for speaking up.

The truth should never be silenced. It's long past time we hear everyone.
rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

jigsalot wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 1:18 am
Jlabute wrote: Jul 8th, 2021, 2:37 pm It is wrong in many ways.
The child has no actual guilt, nor does the race.

Lots of people have chronic mental issues because of false guilt and those who try to push this idea on others have no moral authority to do so and make the world a worse place to live. Forgiving and helping is far superior to hating and blaming. Too many people forget they are just human.

To those who look for an apology, no apology on earth will ever help you. You need to forgive others to free them and yourselves.
I don't believe our First Nations families are looking for apologies. They want acknowledgment of the way they were treated by an occupying, colonizing nation. They want to be acknowledged NOW because they were never recognized as citizens in their own country. If we don't recognize their history in their country before it became the Great White North, we are blind to our history.
There is more than one way to allow ourselves to remain blind to our history. When we fail to recognize when we are being manipulated by the media, we allow tunnel vision to keep us blindered.

There's a LOT of uncertainty. Good journalism seeks the truth and exposes that uncertainty. Here are a few snippets from one: https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/mari ... -1.6106563
"We've always known these were there," said Lerat of the unmarked graves.

He said the idea that the graves were primarily of children who attended the school took on a life of its own.

"It's just the fact that the media picked up on unmarked graves, and the story actually created itself from there because that's how it happens," Lerat said.

SNIP

Linda Whiteman, 80, attended Marieval residential school along with her sister, Pearl Lerat, 78, from the late 1940s to the mid-1950s.

Whiteman said it hurt to hear news of the 751 unmarked graves from her community ricocheting across the country, because she thinks most of them do not contain the remains of children from the residential school.

"The older ones knew that it wasn't all children in there," she said. "I stayed home for two days straight because I didn't want to go anywhere.

"It was very upsetting, to say the least. And it went national just about right away, overnight. But I hope that something good will come out of it, and people will learn the truth about it."

SNIP
"...We were there. We lived it. We should know," said Lerat.

"I'm not claiming to be 110 years old, to know everything, but I think I've experienced enough on my home reserve to remember not only the bad times but the good times."
It's a long piece, worth reading in its entirety. Taking the time to go beyond the headlines helps us avoid clinging to an inaccurate absolutist "guilt-shaming" version of our residential school history.
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the truth
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

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jigsalot wrote: Jul 29th, 2021, 10:43 pm How are we...now...July 2021...still debating the cruelty of residential schools? Government records show that indigenous children were forcibly removed from their family homes in order to assimilate them into the White European Culture. It was the law...indigenous children were forced into residential schools. Again...it was the law. It's past time that we accept the truth about our shared heritage.

this is not our shared heritage this is all on the church and canadian govt, no one else imo
"The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell
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Bsuds
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Bsuds »

the truth wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:02 am this is not our shared heritage this is all on the church and canadian govt, no one else imo
And did anyone try to stop them?

The Gov't is the people and the Church has the "Blessings" of their members.

We may not personally be at fault but can take some responsibility for what happened.
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the truth
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by the truth »

100% nope
"The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell
rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

Bsuds wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:10 am
the truth wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:02 am this is not our shared heritage this is all on the church and canadian govt, no one else imo
And did anyone try to stop them?

The Gov't is the people and the Church has the "Blessings" of their members.

We may not personally be at fault but can take some responsibility for what happened.
The whole point of modern-day guilt shaming is expecting people who were not responsible to take responsibility for the negative outcomes, and only accept as "truth" a skewed version of what happened.

That is a perversion of both truth and reconciliation - it is hollow virtue-signaling to appease someone's victim/ oppressor/ saviour agenda.
jigsalot
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by jigsalot »

Bsuds wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:10 am
the truth wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:02 am this is not our shared heritage this is all on the church and canadian govt, no one else imo
And did anyone try to stop them?

The Gov't is the people and the Church has the "Blessings" of their members.

We may not personally be at fault but can take some responsibility for what happened.
Exactly my friends. The government and the church are comprised of people. Let's not forget the people who closed their eyes and ears to what was going on. Even in the context of the times, residential schools were a national disgrace! As to sources...read a few books...take advanced studies...or, just follow some biased news media that want to white wash Canadian
history.
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GordonH
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by GordonH »

Society has become far to thin skinned, offended by pretty well everything. No one can actually have a personal opinion... because it has to first go through the collective, yes the borg has officially taken over.

Not this Grumpy Old B______.
Come on Supreme Court of Canada step up and do Your Job.

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Ka-El
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by Ka-El »

rustled wrote: The whole point of modern-day guilt shaming is expecting people who were not responsible to take responsibility for the negative outcomes, …
So, at what pint does anyone decide to take responsibility for the negative outcomes? We might not personally be responsible for what happened, but we are all still paying for it (some of us through taxes, some more than others). The great thing about displacing blame and accountability is it absolves people using it of having any sense of collective responsibility in addressing or ever solving these issues. The bad thing is, we never effectively address or solve any of the issues because we haven't and don’t take any effective action defaulting to inaction – and that continues to cost us all, socially and fiscally.
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rustled
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Re: Modern-day guilt shaming

Post by rustled »

Ka-El wrote: Jul 30th, 2021, 8:44 am
rustled wrote: The whole point of modern-day guilt shaming is expecting people who were not responsible to take responsibility for the negative outcomes, …
So, at what pint does anyone decide to take responsibility for the negative outcomes? We might not personally be responsible for what happened, but we are all still paying for it (some of us through taxes, some more than others). The great thing about displacing blame and accountability is it absolves people using it of having any sense of collective responsibility in addressing or ever solving these issues. The bad thing is, we never effectively address or solve any of the issues because we haven't and don’t take any effective action defaulting to inaction – and that continues to cost us all, socially and fiscally.
The full context includes the "and":
The whole point of modern-day guilt shaming is expecting people who were not responsible to take responsibility for the negative outcomes, and only accept as "truth" a skewed version of what happened.

That is a perversion of both truth and reconciliation - it is hollow virtue-signaling to appease someone's victim/ oppressor/ saviour agenda.
You've reframed the argument against modern-day guilt shaming - which includes understanding how it causes harm - to suit the agenda.

No one is suggesting we absolve ourselves of "having any sense of collective responsibility in addressing or ever solving these issues".

No one is suggesting we "default to inaction".

Insisting everyone accepts the skewed version of the truth is NOT taking "effective" action.

IMO, Ka-El, you are once again promoting an agenda that is doing harm under the guise of doing good. When we listen to those who are being hurt by the modern-day guilt shaming over the residential schools - see the link I posted previously, for a few examples - we can see the problem of the victim/ oppressor/ saviour narrative: it creates new victims and re-victimizes those who have genuinely suffered, to serve a saviour agenda.

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