Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Social, economic and environmental issues in our ever-changing world.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3189
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 2:38 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Sparki55 »

TylerM4 wrote: Aug 24th, 2021, 1:34 pm I agree with your sentiment. But at the end of the day - Some kids would really be helped by opening the door to a younger age. Is it really appropriate to deny them that chance "because it might be a mistake for some"?
No, kids aren't capable of these decisions.

I get you want to be warm and fuzzy towards the LGBTQ community but this will cause harm.

It's completely appropriate to deny kids these choices.

Counseling would be better used to get kids back on track to being kids, not worrying about what life altering surgeries they should have.

Kids shouldn't even be engaging in explicit sexual activity until old enough. I didn't have a full grasp on what sex was until after highschool. Just because you have sex and are going through puberty and have new thoughts in your mind doesn't mean you need to permanently alter your body.
TylerM4
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3435
Joined: Feb 27th, 2014, 4:22 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by TylerM4 »

Sparki55 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 8:00 am No, kids aren't capable of these decisions.

I get you want to be warm and fuzzy towards the LGBTQ community but this will cause harm.

It's completely appropriate to deny kids these choices.

Counseling would be better used to get kids back on track to being kids, not worrying about what life altering surgeries they should have.

Kids shouldn't even be engaging in explicit sexual activity until old enough. I didn't have a full grasp on what sex was until after highschool. Just because you have sex and are going through puberty and have new thoughts in your mind doesn't mean you need to permanently alter your body.
I'm starting to wonder if you remember what it was like to be a teenager? Your wording suggests we're dealing with 12yo's here. But the actual topic is focusing more on 15-18yo. Are you aware that by 18yo most youth these days have had sex? By 18yo most youth have had at least 1 "serious" relationship, etc.

There is very little that could be more impactful to them at that age than gender identity. Sexual identity, dating, relationships, and intercourse are literally "top of mind" for that age group. "Just give them counseling" isn't going to help those who would benefit from this type of procedure.

Could harm be done? Yes, I'm sure it could and likely would in some cases. But the better question is "Would the harm outweigh the benefit?". The discussion should look at the total potential for good and compare it to total potential to do harm and see where things land. Blind "It shouldn't be done because they're not capable of making that decision" resistance to the idea is just that - blinding you to what the proper decision is for overall benefit of today's youth.

I honestly don't know if this is a good idea or not. What I do know is that the topic deserves a deeper look than "No, kids aren't capable of these decisions."
36Drew
Grand Pooh-bah
Posts: 2643
Joined: Mar 29th, 2009, 3:32 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by 36Drew »

TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 am Your wording suggests we're dealing with 12yo's here.
That's because we are indeed dealing with children between the ages of 10-12 on the topic of puberty blockers. You should study up on the topic a little more.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 am Could harm be done? Yes, I'm sure it could and likely would in some cases. But the better question is "Would the harm outweigh the benefit?".
Lupron is used to fight cancer. We're using it - in Canada - as a puberty blocker (off-label use) without fully understanding the consequences. On children. Yes, we absolutely should be studying harm-vs-benefit.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 amI honestly don't know if this is a good idea or not. What I do know is that the topic deserves a deeper look than "No, kids aren't capable of these decisions."
No-one knows if this is a good idea - but it's already being done. It does indeed deserve a much deeper look - but no one in Canada is looking or asking those questions. The UK has just recently banned puberty blockers for children under 16 - but we're forging ahead. You seem to support that.
I'd like to change your mind, but I don't have a fresh diaper.
Sparki55
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3189
Joined: Feb 24th, 2013, 2:38 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Sparki55 »

TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 am I'm starting to wonder if you remember what it was like to be a teenager? Your wording suggests we're dealing with 12yo's here. But the actual topic is focusing more on 15-18yo. Are you aware that by 18yo most youth these days have had sex? By 18yo most youth have had at least 1 "serious" relationship, etc.
Yep, I'm aware:
Sparki55 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 8:00 am Just because you have sex and are going through puberty and have new thoughts
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 am There is very little that could be more impactful to them at that age than gender identity. Sexual identity, dating, relationships, and intercourse are literally "top of mind" for that age group. "Just give them counseling" isn't going to help those who would benefit from this type of procedure.
That's a very large generalization. For the kids who are struggling with their gender identity, sure it's impactful for them. For most, it's sports, school, hobbies, etc. The things that make well-rounded adults with many activities and full life, not sex addicts. Had my parents allowed me to focus more energy on sex I probably would have had a kid before 20. I'm thankful I was steered towards school and hobbies, activities that I now enjoy along with sex.
TylerM4 wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 9:28 am Could harm be done? Yes, I'm sure it could and likely would in some cases. But the better question is "Would the harm outweigh the benefit?". The discussion should look at the total potential for good and compare it to the total potential to do harm and see where things land. Blind "It shouldn't be done because they're not capable of making that decision" resistance to the idea is just that - blinding you to what the proper decision is for the overall benefit of today's youth.
Fine, if you truly believe kids under 18 are capable of making life-changing decisions, good for you. I'll choose to stick with the settled science that the human brain doesn't stop developing until around 25 years old. Spend time with people under 20 and ask them serious questions about life. Many don't know what career they want, who to vote for or what they want to study in school, never mind what sex organs they want surgically put on them.
Kelownaite29
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 22nd, 2017, 11:53 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Kelownaite29 »

I feel like a lack of empathy is at the core of this. Not a lack of pity, per se, but an inability or unwillingness to understand that people different from you exist, and that your experiences are not the same as everyone else's. For example, I'm a man. I have always known I was a boy/man as long as I can remember, so I can imagine how weird it would be to have a vagina, much less boobs and a period. I wouldn't just 'be a woman' if I had those things - I'd still be me, but my body would not match that. As a prepubescent kid, it'd be weird but manageable, I think, but when puberty hits? I think you should be able to see why having these treatments available to people of that age would be an amazing medical benefit.

Have you ever talked to a transgender person? Many of them know well before they're adults and most of those that don't at least have a feeling that something about them is not the same as the societal norm. I realize nonbinary can absolutely cloud that issue, but I'm talking about the ends of the spectrum here.

Also, these treatments are not given out on a whim "Oh, Bobby, how would you like to be Jane instead?" That's an obvious strawman and frankly it's not even worth engaging with someone who espouses that since they're clearly arguing in bad faith. As for 'irreversible damage' I find it funny how this kind of argument works. They always bring up the potential damage of doing something in error, but never mention the damage of not taking action when you should. I can conceive of some theoretical edge cases where this treatment would be administered on someone who shouldn't really have it (actually, with current restrictions I really can't, but in some more libertarian system involving some damaged overbearing parents and unethical doctors? Conceivably), but I can point to a whole hell of a lot more real world examples of people whose lives would have been dramatically improved by receiving these treatments at an appropriate age and who would have had a lot less damage done to them. So purely on that, I'd say if you're looking to minimize irreversible damage, we should ensure this treatment and the professional counseling that goes with it and prior to it should be available to anyone who needs it. But I suspect that minimizing damage isn't really OP's aim.
User avatar
Ka-El
Walks on Forum Water
Posts: 12669
Joined: Oct 18th, 2015, 9:19 am

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Ka-El »

I have to admit some of these arguments for allowing this process to start before adulthood make real sense. I still have a hard time with the idea though, as these are life-altering decisions and at 18 years old I didn’t even have any real idea of what I wanted to do with my life (although by that time I was already certain I was a raging heterosexual). I can see there could be circumstances or conditions that would support early intervention but would want to see a very vigorous process in place involving doctor’s, psychologists and family before such intervention would be approved. I actually know someone who is currently transitioning and she's in her forties. Admittedly, her life has been hell as she has struggled with the decision, but she is happier now and probably wishes she could have started the process much earlier. It's a crazy world.
When I retire I want to be careful not to play too much golf. Two rounds a day should be plenty.
Chamboknows
Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 29th, 2015, 9:54 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Chamboknows »

TylerM4 wrote: Aug 24th, 2021, 1:10 pm
Chamboknows wrote: Aug 24th, 2021, 11:38 am I scanned all the comments and didn't see any from a trans young person, or any one considering or having previously considered this option.
Those are the points of view that would interest me - not those of all these others debating what is best or worst for those in that situation.
The rest of you all have every right to your opinion, I however have no time or interest in entertaining it.
Getting their opinion makes sense. Ignoring everyone else's doesn't. It's like asking a 8yo if he/she should be allowed to eat cake for breakfast.

Remember, the topic being debated here is minors making the decision - not whether it's a good/bad decision to make as a young adult. Feedback from non-minors who've made the decision isn't relevant, and anything you do get from a minor would be suspect.
If it is you, or your child that is in that situation, than I care what you think.
If yours is an opinion based on the bible, your sensibilities, anecdotal evidence, or what you consider to be common sense - I could not care less.
User avatar
Jlabute
Lord of the Board
Posts: 3835
Joined: Jan 18th, 2009, 2:08 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by Jlabute »

Ka-El wrote: Aug 26th, 2021, 10:30 am I have to admit some of these arguments for allowing this process to start before adulthood make real sense. I still have a hard time with the idea though, as these are life-altering decisions and at 18 years old I didn’t even have any real idea of what I wanted to do with my life (although by that time I was already certain I was a raging heterosexual). I can see there could be circumstances or conditions that would support early intervention but would want to see a very vigorous process in place involving doctor’s, psychologists and family before such intervention would be approved. I actually know someone who is currently transitioning and she's in her forties. Admittedly, her life has been hell as she has struggled with the decision, but she is happier now and probably wishes she could have started the process much earlier. It's a crazy world.
I understand your POV. At the same time I see transgenderism increasing among teens as though it were a social contagion or peer acceptance issue rather than a sudden sweeping mass of bad genetics or chemical exposure. Perhaps this coincides in timing with teachers recently starting to contradict reality by tell their young students and preschoolers they shouldn’t know what sex they are. Are we confusing youngsters? Why in the UK was there a 4000% increase since 2006? The surgery and drugs risk making many people sterile or bonkers.

I say, confirm a youngsters gender as it matches their sex from a young age and you’ll see a drop in confusion driven sex changes. After all, everything works better from a young age? Any large sudden increase seems unnatural. Dysphoria can have so many causes and it doesn’t seem to explain this current psychic epidemic of rapid onset dysphoria. It isn’t well studied while activists try to grab on to as many converts as possible with the fervour of climate change extremists. I don’t know what is happening, but I get a bad sense from it all.
Huxley - "For him, skepticism is the highest of duties; blind faith the one unpardonable sin."
roseridge
Board Meister
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 27th, 2007, 5:37 pm

Re: Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

Post by roseridge »

Gender reassignment has lifelong consequences. A person who has not reached the age of majority, someone who is less than 16 does not have sufficient maturity to understand the consequences of their actions. Prescribing puberty blockers violates the "Do no harm" part of the hippocratical oath.

Return to “Social Concerns”