Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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two
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by two »

fluffy wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 1:50 pm Just how we inform ourselves is of paramount importance these days, and truly one of the biggest challenges. First and foremost is determining the credibility of a source, and not just hop on board because they're saying something that fits your mood.

The vaccine debate is an excellent example. People will glom on to some little tidbit of information from an unvetted and unknown source because it supports their preconceived notion that they're the victim of some massive conspiracy, all the while ignoring the evidence that is before their own eyes. An easy conclusion to draw is that because most hospitalized cases by far are unvaccinated people it's safe to conclude that the vaccines are effective in that they reduce the severity of infection. Isn't that important ? Reduce the load on hospitals suffering from staff shortages and reducing the instances of serious health issue and death ? It's not a black and white situation, it's about doing our best to deal with a constantly evolving situation. Sowing distrust in government and our health professionals accomplishes nothing but slowing down progress against the virus.
I am sewing distrust in them(leaders and MSM) in general since they have been disingenuous so often, if you want to have a real debate on that subject I am more then prepared to. It is for that reason so many do distrust but then latch on to misinfo, this is the MSM and leaders fault not mine. This is the real problem of our age, letting facebook, twitter, CBC etc censorship issues will not solve the problems we face.

The authoritarianism in information they are willing to stamp around with only shows malice in my eyes.

To me your statement is utter hypocrisy. "The vaccine debate is an excellent example. People will glom on to some little tidbit of information from an unvetted and unknown source because it supports their preconceived notion that they're the victim of some massive conspiracy, all the while ignoring the evidence that is before their own eyes."

With slight alterations to the verbiage, you are more then willing to sacrifice our freedoms while glazing over facts and being ok with censorship of facts and disingenuous media narratives ?

Yes it is important to stop the spread and reduce loads I agree! There are many ways to do this.. shaming people, ordering the unwilling and creating a hostile environment of division with hubris is not helpful it will cause greater problems. It is these things that our government seems so willing to do that are hurtful.

Here is a fresh new example of ridicules opinions https://www.castanet.net/edition/news-s ... htm#345621

If that is true then I think we should deny problems related to: sporting accidents, alcohol, smoking, babies with parents that had known pre existing condtions, speeders, no seat belts, obesity related ailments, farmers using known harmful chemicals etc etc ... hell get rid of universal medicare the US system is better and could be improved by removing any tax funded medical.. (I believe in universal medicare this is just a point)


Rejigger wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 3:44 pm
foenix wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 3:17 pm .....then you went off on a different tangent about how ineffective the vaccines were against the Delta.....and if you agree with two's statement....

Then I guess we are in agreement, the vaccines help the vaccinated from being hospitalized and dying.....is that what you meant by agreeing with two? :biggrin:
Yes, that's ALL the vaccine does - it keeps one out of hospital* - and only for the few months that the vax offers protection.

*except for the elderly and those with co-morbidities, in which case, good luck!

I wasn't off on a tangent. I was showing the facts of how the vaccines lose efficacy in a few short months. Those who received vaccines prior to May of this year are quite possibly relying solely on their own natural immune systems to fight off the virus, and they would be full-on spreading it around to boot (no minimization of viral shed due to having the vaccine). All other vaccinated folk are in some varying degree of a combination vaccine protection and natural immunity due to loss of efficacy.

We cannot hang our hats on this vaccine. Let's stop blaming the unvaxxed for all of our ills.
We may all be considered the equivalent of 'unvaxxed' soon enough.

I wish the government/health experts would start publishing results of TITRE TESTS so that we can stop hating each other already. But they won't do that because they want the self-righteous vaxxed to be at the throats of the unvaxxed.

Meanwhile the (reportedly vaccine resistant) Mu variant is coming.

Please read my post with an open mind so that you can see what the argument is here. In short, I believe this battle is becoming seemingly quite futile very fast.

Caveat: I'm double vaxxed and I'm pro-healthcare (never thought 'pro-healthcare' would ever be a "thing").
~
I get this same impression they have glossed over any of our arguments and continue to skirt them with arguments that falsely presume our opinions on things we clearly agree with already. Futile is a understatement.. Sadly this type of thinking seems pervasive among many here and is the foundation of broken rhetorical thinking(since some rhetorical thinking is correct and well founded). I do not think we can have a debate in good faith or open mindedness. They simply lack the skills of understanding what is being presented while assuming falsities of their opponents, there is clearly something that was never learned in critical thinking skills that can engage in comprehensive debate and avoid presumptions based on fallacy. They also assume they have victory because "even two agrees" hahaha. Yes I never disputed some of those facts and any disputes I have made are completely ignored or misinterpreted.

When I make the main point of why so many remain unvaccinated I get echoed B$ arguments that hold no water to my statements that usually just skirt the point with some other unrelated point. before (but less now) they would argue safety of loved ones and stopping the spread or relate these to polio vaccinations.. its not relatable these vaccinations do not stop the spread.

To be totally clear my arguments are with mandates, medical freedom and privacy and the clearly illogical need for passports when the vaccinated can spread it enough that it cannot be contained from a low enough transmissibility following the vaccination.
which leads us to conclusions about how much misinformation and disingenuous lopsided reporting comes from our apparent MSM journalists that has been clearly broken for decades and usually serves a purpose outside of the common good (usually profits) where real facts get ignored, swept away, and perverted to a cherry picked narrative.

Look at the 6000 dead from 911, resulting in continuous wars that kills tenfold*2 more in innocent people (low estimate) and a narrative that concluded and repeated every day from the MSM that there are weapons of mass destruction from some evil dude that the US put in place to begin with.

Look at how they the president claims caring for womens rights on the same day a bomb hits a school killing women and children. or the ammount of innocent poeple killed by a drone to kill some suicide bombers. *bleep* is wrong with our population for accepting this trash and glazing over all those facts why demanding the unvaccinated are greedy and need to be forced and coerced with threats ?

There are so many examples of how despicable the reported info is by the MSM that its not hard to believe the fabric of trust is lost.. but rather then have humility and recognize that is a reason people have lost trust, other MSM trusting people are now tyrannically stamping their feet to freedom with some facts that IMO hardly justify their fear and demands because unchanging/predictable stastics have been shown to them 50 times a day with a narrative that instills fear and tells them all the despicable things they should demand.

Does anyone want to know some good reasons why not to get the vaccine, FACTS that will be hard to correct but easy to dismiss because of just how big the problems are and mental laziness, reasons why many will remain unvaccinated? and why mandates will not do anything but further us as a heavily divided and fractured population that will probably never solve our democratic problems?
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by foenix »

gad710 wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 4:35 pm
I expect nothing more from you, why not toss up the actual study's that show a 1.5% death rate? Load of crap.
heres some current links you can try to refute:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ce=twitter
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/boost-the-insanity
https://www.thedailybeast.com/ultra-vac ... to-america
https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... d-vaccines

Plus were not on alpha anymore, so your argument is moot. The facts as I see them is that more people are infected now since the "therapy" then ever. And to top it off, show me one study that proves that therapy keeps you out of hospitals more than your natural immunity. Quit being a talking head. Israels own health department had published facts on medrix, proving natural immunity is better. 1.5% death rate, puhlease.
You can do your own research but here's one.......the % numbers vary depending on when and where the study was done.

Infection Fatality Rate (IFR) = Deaths / Cases = 23,430 / 1,694,781 = 1.4% (1.4% of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 have a fatal outcome, while 98.6% recover).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... eath-rate/

There's other studies that says, the world wide deaths might be grossly under reported.

http://www.healthdata.org/special-analy ... -19-deaths

I just set the conditions for the theoretical herd immunity scenario, it could easily be for the Delta but obviously the scenario would have to have been in the beginning as that scenario is no longer possible with natural acquired immunity leading to herd immunity because we have the vaccines now.

Those links are nothing new about the vaccinated catching Covid along with the unvaccinated......but any explanation on why it's mostly the UNVACCINATED that are dying and landing in the hospital presently?..........gasp....could it possibly because of the vaccines?
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Rejigger
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by Rejigger »

foenix wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 5:07 pm Those links are nothing new about the vaccinated catching Covid along with the unvaccinated......but any explanation on why it's mostly the UNVACCINATED that are dying and landing in the hospital presently?..........gasp....could it possibly because of the vaccines?
Again, we're in agreement that vaccines have kept people out of the hospital. For a time. Until the vaccines fail - which is what's happening.

The vaccines are failing because they lose efficacy over a short period of time - whether because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes (wears off too quickly) or because the vaccines weren't formulated for variants (Delta and Mu, for example).

Where we can't seem to agree is that vaccines are not a long-term solution. While you're still parroting the government by telling everyone to get vaccinated, others are seeing what's coming down the pike and thinking, 'Holy hell, we have to find another way to combat this.'

Curious, why do you think the number of hospitalized cases have gone up since Jul 3rd*? If the vaccines worked, why did the virus continue to spread? For the answer, see paragraph 2 above.

*see the graphs on page 8 of this thread regarding hospitalizations and sources of spread
~
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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two wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 4:54 pm Yes it is important to stop the spread and reduce loads I agree! There are many ways to do this.. shaming people, ordering the unwilling and creating a hostile environment of division with hubris is not helpful it will cause greater problems. It is these things that our government seems so willing to do that are hurtful.

To be totally clear my arguments are with mandates, medical freedom and privacy and the clearly illogical need for passports when the vaccinated can spread it enough that it cannot be contained from a low enough transmissibility following the vaccination.
which leads us to conclusions about how much misinformation and disingenuous lopsided reporting comes from our apparent MSM journalists that has been clearly broken for decades and usually serves a purpose outside of the common good (usually profits) where real facts get ignored, swept away, and perverted to a cherry picked narrative.
To be totally clear, my arguments are ALSO with "mandates, medical freedom and privacy and the clearly illogical need for passports when the vaccinated can spread it enough that it cannot be contained from a low enough transmissibility following the vaccination."

I'd be remiss not to mention the surge in cases amongst children who are too young to vaccinate.

If this virus ever goes away, it will not be from anything that humans are currently doing.
~
two
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by two »

Rejigger wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 5:51 pm
two wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 4:54 pm Yes it is important to stop the spread and reduce loads I agree! There are many ways to do this.. shaming people, ordering the unwilling and creating a hostile environment of division with hubris is not helpful it will cause greater problems. It is these things that our government seems so willing to do that are hurtful.

To be totally clear my arguments are with mandates, medical freedom and privacy and the clearly illogical need for passports when the vaccinated can spread it enough that it cannot be contained from a low enough transmissibility following the vaccination.
which leads us to conclusions about how much misinformation and disingenuous lopsided reporting comes from our apparent MSM journalists that has been clearly broken for decades and usually serves a purpose outside of the common good (usually profits) where real facts get ignored, swept away, and perverted to a cherry picked narrative.
To be totally clear, my arguments are ALSO with "mandates, medical freedom and privacy and the clearly illogical need for passports when the vaccinated can spread it enough that it cannot be contained from a low enough transmissibility following the vaccination."

I'd be remiss not to mention the surge in cases amongst children who are too young to vaccinate.

If this virus ever goes away, it will not be from anything that humans are currently doing.
~
There is a solid dose of truth. It is not going away, your probably going to get it sometime in the future vaccinated or not, maybe multiple times over.. Do you want a passport? are those protesting it and mandates jerks or do you think the topic needs more thought?
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fluffy
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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two wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 7:26 pmDo you want a passport? are those protesting it and mandates jerks or do you think the topic needs more thought?
The whole issue is constantly evolving as new variants appear. I will go with what we do know, that the vaccines, while not 100% effective as we have learned, do lower the odds of contracting and/or transmitting the disease, and have been shown to be effective in reducing severe cases, hospitalization, and death.

However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html

So yes, I am in favor of any measure that reduces the chance of community transmission, including vaccine passports. The idea that because cases are still managing to sneak through our defenses that we should abandon those defenses altogether is totally without merit.

I will not subscribe to the idea that our government agencies are perpetrating some nefarious plot upon us or any of the other tinfoil hat crap currently in over-supply.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by foenix »

Rejigger wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 5:47 pm
foenix wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 5:07 pm Those links are nothing new about the vaccinated catching Covid along with the unvaccinated......but any explanation on why it's mostly the UNVACCINATED that are dying and landing in the hospital presently?..........gasp....could it possibly because of the vaccines?
Again, we're in agreement that vaccines have kept people out of the hospital. For a time. Until the vaccines fail - which is what's happening.

The vaccines are failing because they lose efficacy over a short period of time - whether because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes (wears off too quickly) or because the vaccines weren't formulated for variants (Delta and Mu, for example).

Where we can't seem to agree is that vaccines are not a long-term solution. While you're still parroting the government by telling everyone to get vaccinated, others are seeing what's coming down the pike and thinking, 'Holy hell, we have to find another way to combat this.'

Curious, why do you think the number of hospitalized cases have gone up since Jul 3rd*? If the vaccines worked, why did the virus continue to spread? For the answer, see paragraph 2 above.

*see the graphs on page 8 of this thread regarding hospitalizations and sources of spread
~
I hate to break it to you Rej, those graph does nothing to support your position that the vaccines are failing. There's no data on those graphs that breaks down the infections for those that were vaccinated or not. In fact, the first graph along with boots on the ground reporting supports the position that the vaccines are working to keep those that got them from serious hospitalizations and deaths.

The graph for the increase in hospitalized cases is an easy one to answer as most hospitalized and death since July 3td is mostly from the unvaxxed group so I guess the lesson there is to get your vaccinations if one doesn't want to land up in the hospital and possibly dying.
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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two wrote: Sep 13th, 2021, 4:54 pmWhen I make the main point of why so many remain unvaccinated I get echoed B$ arguments that hold no water to my statements that usually just skirt the point with some other unrelated point. before (but less now) they would argue safety of loved ones and stopping the spread or relate these to polio vaccinations.. its not relatable these vaccinations do not stop the spread.
No, but they do slow it down, and that's important. As more people get vaccinated and infection rates drop, the few remaining become less of a threat.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

Post by two »

asdf
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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Rejigger
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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foenix wrote: Sep 14th, 2021, 7:06 am I hate to break it to you Rej, those graph does nothing to support your position that the vaccines are failing.
That statement didn't age well at all. Of course the vaccines are failing, hence the need for more vaccines. Third* doses are being administered or are on the way, depending on age/circumstances (*second doses for J&J vaccine).

It was the data out of Israel where I learned that the vaccines were failing. I've been encouraging others to follow what's happening in Israel. Still do, in fact.

~
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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Rejigger wrote: Oct 19th, 2021, 12:10 am
That statement didn't age well at all. Of course the vaccines are failing, hence the need for more vaccines. Third* doses are being administered or are on the way, depending on age/circumstances (*second doses for J&J vaccine).

It was the data out of Israel where I learned that the vaccines were failing. I've been encouraging others to follow what's happening in Israel. Still do, in fact.

~
The vaccines weren't designed for the variants, they were designed for the original strain. Regardless, the vaccines are providing protection for the majority of the population.

But please, do continue, your posts, while completely uninformative, are highly entertaining :clapping:
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Rejigger
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Re: Why we need this vaccine passport mandate (from a vaccinated persons perspective):

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Yes, I love the argument that "The vaccines don't stop people from contracting and spreading the virus because they were designed for a different variant of this virus." To summarize, the vaccines won't stop this virus. Ever. Have we learned nothing from the flu virus? When do you think they'll develop a vaccine for "this" variant? (which variant? there are so many now) Why haven't they tweaked the vaccine yet? Hmmm?

Next argument: "Everything is the fault of the unvaccinated. ...Oh, say what now? I, too, am considered to be unvaccinated at this point? Vaccine wane????"

Meanwhile kids are spreading the virus. "Better start vaccinating from age zero up. If we can't direct our hatred towards kids, we can still direct it towards the parents of the unvaxxed kids. C'mon Bonnie Henry, just tell us that kids should get the vaccine 'cause I'm about to explode with all this hatred building inside me. Need more people to direct it at."

The vaccinated can also carry and spread the virus. "Hey, why are you glaring at me? That sneeze was from dust. Honest! I don't have the covid. *spoken in the most self-righteous tone* I'm vaccinated!"

Stop the hysteria.

~

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