Is virtual abuse real abuse

[Jlabute]

....
VR is NOT defined by a set of goggles, although marketing would have you think so. ...

Thought this was self-explanatory too:

multi-projected environments to generate realistic images,

Sure, that is what we call it today, but it ain't foolin' no one. Projection doesn't create realism. Ain't realistic enough. AR maybe has a better chance of that, but it too ain't foolin' no one yet.

[Jonrox]

VR is not hard to define. It's a very specific experience using specific hardware. Video games aren't inherently VR but they can exist in VR.

I think it's important to start laying the groundwork for what's acceptable from a societal and legal perspective before the technology outpaces the rules and laws by too wide of a margin and then we struggle to catch up.

It's easy for folks right now to say that it's just pixels interacting on a screen and I think there's validity to that argument... I think it's a bit of a stretch at this point to call it physical abuse.

But what happens when haptic gloves and suits are no longer niche technologies and achieve widespread adoption? If you can "feel" somebody else "touch" you, but it's really just a series of motors, airbags, wires, etc. being activated by another user groping/hitting/touching your digital avatar... is that ok?

The technology is already out there... VR sex toys, haptic gloves, and haptic suits are already a thing. It's not hard to see where VR technology could be headed.

[captkirkcanada]

VR is not hard to define. It's a very specific experience using specific hardware. Video games aren't inherently VR but they can exist in VR.

I think it's important to start laying the groundwork for what's acceptable from a societal and legal perspective before the technology outpaces the rules and laws by too wide of a margin and then we struggle to catch up.

It's easy for folks right now to say that it's just pixels interacting on a screen and I think there's validity to that argument... I think it's a bit of a stretch at this point to call it physical abuse.

But what happens when haptic gloves and suits are no longer niche technologies and achieve widespread adoption? If you can "feel" somebody else "touch" you, but it's really just a series of motors, airbags, wires, etc. being activated by another user groping/hitting/touching your digital avatar... is that ok?

The technology is already out there... VR sex toys, haptic gloves, and haptic suits are already a thing. It's not hard to see where VR technology could be headed.

i think the question is really if a human says they want or would like to commit what the rest of us would consider a crime , is that in itself enough to arrest that person? the reason i say that is because say in a game like call of duty where you can shoot other players in a virtual environment at will. gta is a game where you supposed to commit crimes.

[Jonrox]

i think the question is really if a human says they want or would like to commit what the rest of us would consider a crime , is that in itself enough to arrest that person? the reason i say that is because say in a game like call of duty where you can shoot other players in a virtual environment at will. gta is a game where you supposed to commit crimes.

Things can get a bit gray here...

If virtual actions have a real world effect on somebody... again think of the future of the tech with haptic suits where you can physically feel somebody's virtual actions in the real world... where is the line drawn by society and the legal system? Should a line be drawn? And where does the line get drawn between laws in the physical and virtual world?

Or should the virtual world be a lawless world where anything goes?

Unreal Engine 5 allows developers to create characters virtually indistinguishable from reality... think of the best CGI in Hollywood blockbusters but now available for everyone to use. Is it ok for a pedophile to go into a VR world to molest a photo-realistic child using a haptic suit and gloves because that child doesn't exist in the real world? If nobody in the real world is harmed by behaviour like this, is it ok because it's just pixels touching each other?

As another example, EVE Online has seen massive battles causing the destruction of hundreds of thousands of real dollars worth of in game ships and equipment. The biggest war in the game's history saw the destruction of $300,000 worth of in-game ships, items, weapons, etc.... Is it ok to destroy something in the virtual world that somebody paid real money for?

What if someone is backstabbed and has years worth of time, effort, and money stolen from them like in the example below? Some will say "it's just a game", but when real money and real people have their lives affected by the actions of others, it might be more than just a game.

EVE Online's reputation for skullduggery and betrayal was first cemented back in 2005 after a group of assassins staged one of the most elaborate and brutal heists of all time. Contracted by an anonymous employer, the Guiding Hand Social Club spent 10 months slowly infiltrating a player-run corporation called Ubiqua Seraph. Its mission? Kill Ubiqua Seraph CEO Mirial and steal everything that wasn't bolted to the floor.

To pull this off, Guiding Hand spent months carefully infiltrating the corporation at every level with multiple spies. It even infiltrated Ubiqua Seraph's senior leadership, with primary spy Arenis Xemdal becoming Mirial's right-hand man. When Guiding Hand at last had enough spies in place, it orchestrated a brutal assassination: Arenis convinced Mirial to follow him on a tour of nearby star systems in her (then) ridiculously expensive and rare Navy Apocalypse battleship.

The moment Mirial was cut off from help, Guiding Hand pilots warped in and destroyed her ship and even her escape pod, claiming her corpse as tribute to their mysterious employer. Meanwhile, dozens of Guiding Hand pilots stationed in Ubiqua Seraph stations pillaged everything stored in shared hangars and storage. At the time, it was a heist of unprecedented scale—30 billion ISK worth of ships and items. Mirial was ruined, Ubiqua Seraph destitute, and Guiding Hand Social Club became EVE Online legends.

The future is crazy.

[Jonrox]

It seems some folks think that the user who was groped in the virtual world is overreacting because it was just virtual avatars involved... pixels touching pixels. But think to the future of the technology... what if that user had been wearing a haptic suit and could feel the unwanted groping? Is it still ok?

Similar to the real world, I don't think you can blame a victim for wearing something they like because it invited the groping. It would be like blaming a rape victim for wearing revealing clothing.

[Sparki55]

It seems some folks think that the user who was groped in the virtual world is overreacting because it was just virtual avatars involved... pixels touching pixels. But think to the future of the technology... what if that user had been wearing a haptic suit and could feel the unwanted groping? Is it still ok?

Similar to the real world, I don't think you can blame a victim for wearing something they like because it invited the groping. It would be like blaming a rape victim for wearing revealing clothing.

If you don't like what is happening to you in a virtual setting, unplug the device...

What if someone is wearing a haptic suit? Unplug it.

Know what you can't do in a real abusive setting? Unplug...

[JLives]

It seems some folks think that the user who was groped in the virtual world is overreacting because it was just virtual avatars involved... pixels touching pixels. But think to the future of the technology... what if that user had been wearing a haptic suit and could feel the unwanted groping? Is it still ok?

Similar to the real world, I don't think you can blame a victim for wearing something they like because it invited the groping. It would be like blaming a rape victim for wearing revealing clothing.

If you don't like what is happening to you in a virtual setting, unplug the device...

What if someone is wearing a haptic suit? Unplug it.

Know what you can't do in a real abusive setting? Unplug...

That's not how you deal with abuse though. It's not the victim's job to leave or change things. That's victim blaming. It's the abuser who needs to change and only the abuser. This will be a reality albeit one difficult for older generations to understand. So how do we deal with abusers in a virtual setting?

[Sparki55]

So how do we deal with abusers in a virtual setting?

No such thing as abuse in a virtual setting. It's virtual, it's fake.

Unless the actual person, the one behind the screen is being harassed (cyberbullying) then there is nothing more to be done by the government. A stuipid fake act on fake characters is nothing to be concered about.

Individual gaming companies can ban users as they see fit, private business.

[Jlabute]

It seems some folks think that the user who was groped in the virtual world is overreacting because it was just virtual avatars involved... pixels touching pixels. But think to the future of the technology... what if that user had been wearing a haptic suit and could feel the unwanted groping? Is it still ok?

Similar to the real world, I don't think you can blame a victim for wearing something they like because it invited the groping. It would be like blaming a rape victim for wearing revealing clothing.

First thing I'll do is buy a haptic suit with a genital stimulator... because, that's how all of them are made? Even still, it gives nowhere near a real experience.

A virtual world doesn't even exist until someone puts on a helmet, and they look fake. The sale of VR helmets is not great. It is currently a gimmick, like 3D TVs were.

VR and AR are hyped beyond their original perception. Virtual is a word that is extremely over-used today. If VR depends upon a headset, that would make the definition of VR weak. Something is VR because marketing called it that. If one slows down and thinks about the meaning of words, virtual means indistinguishable, as opposed to 'online'. That is one element we do not have. You can't get really pregnant in VR, you can't get really touched, your physical body is still a thousand miles away from Mr. Violator. As previously stated, every user will have their own "bubble" because EVERYONE was violating each others pixels. No one seems to think anything about it. Maybe it also involves walking through those you don't like. Will we call the cops to report new classifications of crime... walking through people? Will we also report B&Es and the theft of fake items? Naked avatars?

It is all so silly. It is a victim looking for a crime.

[Jlabute]

So how do we deal with abusers in a virtual setting?

No such thing as abuse in a virtual setting. It's virtual, it's fake.

Right. Also it is why we create virtual boxes on our computers so we can do experimentation without the real operating system getting harmed.

[Jonrox]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not arguing what's currently going on is a crime or even abuse. I'm more concerned about where the technology is inevitably headed and I'm asking questions I'm genuinely interested in hearing people respond to. I think it's a fascinating topic... but I'm also a huge Black Mirror fan and have likely been biased by some of the terribly dark places that show goes with it's views on technology.

First thing I'll do is buy a haptic suit with a genital stimulator... because, that's how all of them are made? Even still, it gives nowhere near a real experience.

You can buy genital stimulators that seamlessly sync up with VR porn. That technology exists now. It's not the same... yet.

Would it be ok if people took pictures of your kids from their childhood off Facebook and Instagram, and then used Unreal Engine 5 to create a fully realistic avatars of these kids that are of the same quality as the best Hollywood CGI out there and then use them in sexual abuse scenarios in a VR setting with full haptic feedback? The real child wasn't harmed in any way and they exist only in VR. Is it ok for pedophiles to rape your child in a VR setting?

I understand this is extreme and is some Black Mirror kind of stuff, but the scenario is not as far fetched as some of you seem to think it is.

A virtual world doesn't even exist until someone puts on a helmet, and they look fake. The sale of VR helmets is not great. It is currently a gimmick, like 3D TVs were.

Meta has already sold 10 million Quest headsets, far surpassing even their own expectations. When Apple unveils their VR/AR headset, be ready for even bigger widespread mainstream adoption. The tech still looks largely like a video game, but the experience is surreal at times... it often doesn't feel as fake as it appears to be. And again... the tech is progressing exponentially.

VR and AR are hyped beyond their original perception. Virtual is a word that is extremely over-used today. If VR depends upon a headset, that would make the definition of VR weak. Something is VR because marketing called it that. If one slows down and thinks about the meaning of words, virtual means indistinguishable, as opposed to 'online'. That is one element we do not have. You can't get really pregnant in VR, you can't get really touched, your physical body is still a thousand miles away from Mr. Violator. As previously stated, every user will have their own "bubble" because EVERYONE was violating each others pixels. No one seems to think anything about it. Maybe it also involves walking through those you don't like. Will we call the cops to report new classifications of crime... walking through people? Will we also report B&Es and the theft of fake items? Naked avatars?

It is all so silly. It is a victim looking for a crime.

Verbal and emotional abuse runs rampant in chat (both voice and text) in VR, video games, and online hangouts already. And you can be certain that some folks will look for any opportunity to harass and abuse others when the haptic tech gets to the point that they're able to.

Keep in mind that the tech isn't fully realized yet... I agree that at the moment it's highly questionable to call it physical abuse and to call virtual crimes "real crimes". But with where the tech is potentially headed, that's why I ask the questions I did. I'd rather we start thinking about the future now, rather than have to play catchup when the tech has outpaced our rules and laws.

[Bigbacardi]

How does one get raped virtually?
If you don't want your face copied and pasted onto a virtual body, don't put your face on the internet?
You don't have to have a Facebook account, you don't have to post your pic everywhere, you don't have to upload selfies to the internet.
These are all choices.

[Jonrox]

How does one get raped virtually?
If you don't want your face copied and pasted onto a virtual body, don't put your face on the internet?
You don't have to have a Facebook account, you don't have to post your pic everywhere, you don't have to upload selfies to the internet.
These are all choices.

Are you suggesting that people who post pictures of their kids online should expect that some sicko pedophile will create a fully realistic version of their child in a VR setting and rape them using a haptic suit and genital stimulator? What if someone just took their picture in public and created the avatar from that?

Although it's not your actual kids, it's a fully realistic version of them that could be passed around and abused. Would you be comfortable with their image and likeness being used like that? Is it ok that this could happen?

The technology may not exist in a fully realized state today, but it will in the near future. Deepfakes are already incredibly realistic and sometimes indistinguishable from reality... the guy who does the fake Tom Cruise stuff on TikTok can be pretty mindblowing at times.

I'm just trying to get a sense of what people think is ok... I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm wondering where folks draw the line of what's acceptable and what's not.

[Sparki55]

Are you suggesting that people who post pictures of their kids online should expect that some sicko pedophile will create a fully realistic version of their child in a VR setting and rape them using a haptic suit and genital stimulator? What if someone just took their picture in public and created the avatar from that?

What happens if the person who creates this image lives in Bangladesh and your child lives here? Do we send the RCMP to arrest them?

To answer your questions specifically, I'd likely have no knowledge that someone even did this. Neither would my kids. If they were somehow exposed to content like that they wouldn't be allowed back on the game/website. So I would not care.

[Jonrox]

Are you suggesting that people who post pictures of their kids online should expect that some sicko pedophile will create a fully realistic version of their child in a VR setting and rape them using a haptic suit and genital stimulator? What if someone just took their picture in public and created the avatar from that?

What happens if the person who creates this image lives in Bangladesh and your child lives here? Do we send the RCMP to arrest them?

To answer your questions specifically, I'd likely have no knowledge that someone even did this. Neither would my kids. If they were somehow exposed to content like that they wouldn't be allowed back on the game/website. So I would not care.

It sound like you're ok with people creating "games" in which kids are raped and abused virtually, whether they're yours or not, as long as you don't know about it or aren't exposed to it. Is that fair to say?