Transgendered Woman Upset by Gym's Policy

[youjustcomplain]

I get your point. I think though that the vast, vast majority of society simply don't support this because it is an unreachable destination and the thought itself is untenable.

If the world at large holds a personal religion of their choice as their sanctuary and they conduct their lives by the word of their god, the notion that this same god has gotten it wrong as often as the numbers suggest is beyond reason.

I dislike the saying "majority rules" but it is the measure and as long as that is true, the inclusivity train will never to any meaningful degree, stop at this particular station.

Oh I completely agree with you on all of this. I'm under no delusion that any progress will be made on a societal level anytime soon. Things have started to change though. We have unisex bathrooms and more private change rooms than when I was young. LGBTQ+ people aren't generally referred to in a derogatory way in society, at least, it's not acceptable anymore; it once was.

Society is budging every so slowly towards acceptance, but I think we're still struggling through tolerance. I think it's great though. Any change that adds inclusivity to LGBTQ+ people is a change for the better, in my mind. I do think that as a society, we do need to be careful how these things get implemented. Such as, this topic; should trans woman be allowed in woman only programs and facilities? I can only express my opinion and challenge those of others with hopes that they'll reflect on why they feel a certain way that I don't. My commitment is to do exactly the same; I read the counter argument and attempt to weigh out whether or not I need to truly consider that as a valid point, or dismiss it.

I do think you bring up a good point though. Is some of the resistance to accepting new ideas with regards to trans or gay rights, based on very old religious based teachings? Being that I don't belong to any faith group and don't believe in any gods makes me wonder if my feelings on this subject is influenced, or rather, not influenced by that.

[rustled]

It's misguided to accuse people who DO support change FOR THE BETTER of "not opening their eyes" for pointing out the significant problems with changes being made to support the "diversity, inclusion and equity" agenda.

It seems to me we're now at a point our society, where more hostility is shown toward people who point out the significant problems with these changes than is shown toward any group of people identity politics claims to be defending from hostility.

Who is supporting change for the better though? If I review the arguments here, it's been something along the lines of:
1. Man is man, woman is woman. can't change it. Anyone who wants to is mentally ill and should be left out of society
2. Woman deserve to not have to be anywhere close to men or trans woman.

Which arguments have you seen where people against trans woman's rights have been advocating for change to help the trans woman?

We're not here to talk about other posters and their arguments, though.

In reality, change for the better for trans women can't be achieved by disregarding negative outcomes for women.

[The Green Barbarian]

https://www.azmirror.com/2023/01/24/bil ... ns-people/

A Republican bill aimed at shielding domestic violence shelters from gender discrimination claims could run afoul of federal employment law and could also be a way to exclude transgender individuals, according to critics.

House Bill 2312 by Rep. Rachel Jones, R-Tucson, says that facilities that don’t allow biologically male employees in the presence of a woman or her children living in the facility are not liable for gender discrimination.

Jones said that she created the bill after an unnamed Christian women’s shelter lost its federal funding, due in part to this issue, as the women at the clinic did not feel comfortable around men because of the trauma they had experienced. Jones also said that they lost funding due in part to certain values the organization held.

“As far as the values that they have in their mission statement, they are Christian values and things like that,” Jones said before the House Health and Human Services Committee Monday, adding that the federal government tried to make the organization “do things that were not in accordance with their mission statement.”

Jones refused to name the organization saying that she did not want them “harassed.”

The bill faced scrutiny from the state’s largest domestic violence advocacy organization, the Arizona Coalition to End Sexual and Domestic Violence, whose advocate said in committee Monday that the bill runs afoul of federal as well as state laws around employment discrimination.

The Violence Against Women Act, initially passed in 1994, was recently reauthorized and signed by President Joe Biden disallows discrimination on the basis of sex for any program that receives VAWA funds. Additionally, the state’s standards set for service providers for sexual violence service providers also disallows discrimination on the basis of sex.

Now I know that there will be various lunatics here who will be triggered immediately by the word "Republican", but it is amazing how this issue DOES NOT seem to be so black and white and divided along party lines. The continual creep of wokeism into society is really doing a lot of damage to mostly women's rights, and a lot of traditional Democrat voters who are women are definitely reaching a breaking point here. What choice do they have? If they feel unsafe, they feel unsafe. No man should be telling them that they should just "suck it up" and start sharing rooms and showering with people who are still biological men. That's just beyond absurd. But that's the best way to describe the entire woke movement: "beyond absurd".

[The Green Barbarian]

We have unisex bathrooms and more private change rooms than when I was young.

How are "unisex bathrooms" considered "progress" by anyone? This is insane.

[normaM]

" It's my belief that woman only gyms shouldn't be accepted by society."
Why?
I could ask why is it important if you are male to see women working out at the gym? Far too many creepers gawking and recording

[The Green Barbarian]

Far too many creepers gawking and recording

Now now Norma, you have to accept said gawking and creeping. Just suck it up and go shower in front of a bunch of dudes. That's the woke way!

[youjustcomplain]

Concerns over transgender client at Okanagan shelter

Two women are raising concerns about the latest person to move into a Kelowna homeless shelter for women.

“He wants to become a woman, I mean that is his choice but when a man comes into a women’s shelter who still has a penis and genitals he has more rights than we do.” Tracey said.

Tracey is upset that she was made to share a room with a transgender individual, a man transitioning to become a woman.

“They told me, sorry if a person identifies themselves with female, then we have to go with that.” Tracey said.

Another client named Blaine was also staying at the shelter. She recently fled from an abusive relationship and says she’s uncomfortable with a transgender person staying at women’s only facility.

“Some women have had bad experiences with men so they are fleeing men and now we have a man living there,” Blaine said.

Why not ask these two ladies?
They spoke out because they felt unsafe. And were then kicked out for speaking out. Makes total sense.

I doctored your post just a little so I could quote it more clearly. Sorry if it interupted the intended flow.

Why would I ask those two ladies? What would they provide that we don't already know?
Assumption: They're afraid of people with penises.

I suspect they've been abused by someone with a penis. This is awful. Awful that it happened to them and awful that someone else would ever harm or abuse another. But it happens. I get it.

What does a trans womans potential penis have to do with it? If the trans woman has the surgery to have it removed, is the fear immediately removed for these woman? Like, they're scared to death of a trans woman on Feb 25, but that evening, the penis is surgically removed... all fears gone in that moment? No. Nobody turns off their fear like that. The Penis is NOT the reason for the fear. The fear lives in the head of the abused woman and her fear is based on whether the other person is male. But what does that mean? Male gender? birth sex? Appearance? I suppose it could be different things to different people, but I'd be willing to wager that these woman would base it on appearance. If they thought the trans woman was a woman, there would be no issue. If, later, they found out she's trans and was born male, they may feel fear towards her.

I'm not telling any woman that it's illogical or nonsensical to have fears, especially if they've been abused. Fear is natural.

Is being trans natural? Does nature only extend to how we're born or does it transcend (pun intended) birth and continue to evolve through our lives? These are questions we should be asking ourselves when we make statements about what the "truth" is, or what "Science" tells us, especially when we pick out only the pieces of truth and science that support our beliefs.

[youjustcomplain]

And this is where the woke ones supporting all these issue's have a reckoning to deal with. When real life situations come into light, like men sharing showers with their teen girls. Or maybe the closure of women private businesses etc. Then when called upon to justify their very special virtue signalling they have nothing to offer.
Thats the problem today, the very ones supporting any of this are actually the last ones to have a single answer for what they emotional brag about.

Is that what you've got from the things I've said? Have I offered nothing?
You get to be the judge.

I can present my arguments and leave it to you to determine if I said anything.

[77TA]

Let's change the scenario from a gym to a woman's shelter.

Women deserve to have safe and comfortable places free of male anatomy if they so choose. It's hard to believe some disagree with that.

Would you like to open a different thread about your different topic?

You can go ahead and add Woman's Shelters to the very long list of things I have not mentioned. I haven't advocated that trans woman be allowed in womans shelters. Great that you can try to build a case against something not being discussed.

I'll also not be suggesting that they get mammograms and tests done to check for cervical cancer. But hey, build that as a case against the topic of why trans woman should be allowed to exercise in a gym where they feel safe from men.

You have mentioned women's public bathrooms (start your own thread).This thread is about women's gyms which would include change rooms and showers and I believe it is relevant to all female only safe spaces.

Since you feel male anatomy should be allowed in female only gyms, why not public bathrooms, sports and women's shelters as well. Is this your stance? I hope not.
Perhaps it's up to you where these situations should start and stop.

[youjustcomplain]

I think people who are genuinely interested in making the world a better place are fully prepared to take responsibility for the negative consequences of the changes they support. Experience with having to take responsibility for outcomes makes one more cautious. Whereas folk who want to be seen to be "doing the right thing" - like pushing for a blanket policy of allowing biological men into women's spaces based solely on the biological male's desire to be in that space - tend to gloss past all potential for negative consequences, have often moved on to the next popular agenda before those negative consequences are coming to light, and are unprepared to acknowledge their own hand in making those negative consequences a reality.

I agree. I think some people are fully prepared to take responsibility for any potential negative consequences for the changes they support.
Which is to say, that things aren't perfect now. There are marginalized people in society everywhere. Homeless, non white, LGBTQ+, etc... Given that things aren't perfect for everyone, is it possible that society could make changes for the better? Could society shift in such a way that treats people better?

I'm prepared to admit that having womans only gyms that accept men won't not work out with the flick of a switch. I'm not advocating for that either though. Doing so would have negative consequences and there would be potential for harm, somewhere at some time. People who were against it from the start would point to the once instance of harm and decide the entire change was for the worse. Even if, overall, then was less harm being done to more people.

[youjustcomplain]

yes, that was pretty shocking and SO unfair when this happened. Like the ladies said ( and ladies who are in fear for their life and their children's and finally made the hard decisions to leave their abusive spouses) Transitioning Men have more rights in a Women's Shelter than they do and their children, and apparently the Transgender community sees nothing wrong with it because if they did they would completely understand the fear these women and children have and they would be starting a Transgender Shelter themselves.

Maybe that's the solution. A trans shelter. A place where they can go to feel safe.

If a trans woman is in an abusive relationship and makes the hard decision to leave the abusive spouses, where are they supposed to go? Yes, we're talking about a woman with a penis between her legs. Where is she to go? This question is less hypothetical than some that I've asked.

[youjustcomplain]

I don't think anyone can make a case to logically explain why women who want to exercise in a gym where they feel safe from men should have to share that gym with any biological male who claims to be trans.

You just can't say it can you. There is some need for you to get a dig in at this woman. Yet I'm to believe most people in society want to help trans people and feel compassion. It's not true.

[youjustcomplain]

You are not the boss of the thread....

Nah, I'm not. :) But I am trying to stay on topic. If a case can't be made to defend the reason why a trans woman shouldn't be in a womans gym, then it doesn't strengthen the argument to change the subject. That's all.

[rustled]

I think people who are genuinely interested in making the world a better place are fully prepared to take responsibility for the negative consequences of the changes they support. Experience with having to take responsibility for outcomes makes one more cautious. Whereas folk who want to be seen to be "doing the right thing" - like pushing for a blanket policy of allowing biological men into women's spaces based solely on the biological male's desire to be in that space - tend to gloss past all potential for negative consequences, have often moved on to the next popular agenda before those negative consequences are coming to light, and are unprepared to acknowledge their own hand in making those negative consequences a reality.

I agree. I think some people are fully prepared to take responsibility for any potential negative consequences for the changes they support.
Which is to say, that things aren't perfect now. There are marginalized people in society everywhere. Homeless, non white, LGBTQ+, etc... Given that things aren't perfect for everyone, is it possible that society could make changes for the better? Could society shift in such a way that treats people better?

I'm prepared to admit that having womans only gyms that accept men won't not work out with the flick of a switch. I'm not advocating for that either though. Doing so would have negative consequences and there would be potential for harm, somewhere at some time. People who were against it from the start would point to the once instance of harm and decide the entire change was for the worse. Even if, overall, then was less harm being done to more people.

How would we gauge the "overall" harm, over time, though?

If we acknowledge trans women feel unsafe in a gym where they encounter men, we should be able to understand there is NO benefit to trans women who feel that way in allowing obviously biological males to attend a women-only gym.

While it seems simple at first to use whatever harm we assume is being done when an obviously biological male is excluded from a women's only gym, in reality this exclusion affords exactly the same protection to any trans woman who feels unsafe using a gym where men are working out.

[rustled]

I don't think anyone can make a case to logically explain why women who want to exercise in a gym where they feel safe from men should have to share that gym with any biological male who claims to be trans.

You just can't say it can you. There is some need for you to get a dig in at this woman. Yet I'm to believe most people in society want to help trans people and feel compassion. It's not true.

Making it personal is unhelpful. This is not a dig at anyone. If a trans woman wants to feel safe from men, why would she welcome obvious biological males into her safe space?